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stelaras
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Re: #Article: Avoiding chaos from the boom

#31 Post by stelaras » Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:09 pm

Will wrote:It does appear that private roads are inevitable, but I will only support such ventures if they are equitable. For example students, pensioners, war veterans and low -income earners should pay a reduced toll or no toll at all.

And how will you police that???


Different paying systems for the deprived/pensioners/students don't work in my opinion....If they want to travel cheaply they can use PT, which means that the PT network would have to be re-vamped to be more effective. Since state-government won't be forking out 100% of the money to build a toll road(s) then there should be plenty left over for PT

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Re: #Article: Avoiding chaos from the boom

#32 Post by Howie » Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:18 pm

stelaras wrote: And how will you police that???
Maybe just present a concession card when you buy an eTag perhaps?

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Re: #Article: Avoiding chaos from the boom

#33 Post by rhino » Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:20 pm

stelaras wrote:
Will wrote:It does appear that private roads are inevitable, but I will only support such ventures if they are equitable. For example students, pensioners, war veterans and low -income earners should pay a reduced toll or no toll at all.

And how will you police that???


It would work with e-tags. When you apply for your e-tag, you would pay according to your status.
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Rhino

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Re: #Article: Avoiding chaos from the boom

#34 Post by stelaras » Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:30 pm

so, what stops people taking in their pensioner fathers/mothers/ uncles/ aunts and saying saying the car is registered under his name and getting a concession?

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Re: #Article: Avoiding chaos from the boom

#35 Post by Will » Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:39 pm

stelaras wrote:
Will wrote:It does appear that private roads are inevitable, but I will only support such ventures if they are equitable. For example students, pensioners, war veterans and low -income earners should pay a reduced toll or no toll at all.

And how will you police that???


Different paying systems for the deprived/pensioners/students don't work in my opinion....If they want to travel cheaply they can use PT, which means that the PT network would have to be re-vamped to be more effective. Since state-government won't be forking out 100% of the money to build a toll road(s) then there should be plenty left over for PT
The value of money is different depending on your income. For example, a $4 toll is 'worth' more for a pensioner living on a pension as compared to someone earning $200K a year, for whom the value of $4 is nothing.

And also I don't particularly think the solution for low-income people is to tell them to use public transport. By relying solely on public transport (even a better sysytem) your opportunities are limited. For example, I study at Flinders University. I drive to uni, because from where I live, there is no direct bus going to the university. As a result I would first have to catch a bus to the city, and then another to the university. This would make it a 1.5 hour journey, as comapred to the 20 minutes it takes to drive. Even if the public transport system was improved, I doubt a bus from where I live to Flinders would be feasible. This is the basis of my arguement. There are occassions when people need to drive, and the most disadvantaged people in society should not have their opportunities limited by private roads.

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Re: #Article: Avoiding chaos from the boom

#36 Post by Ho Really » Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:31 pm

Will wrote:The value of money is different depending on your income. For example, a $4 toll is 'worth' more for a pensioner living on a pension as compared to someone earning $200K a year, for whom the value of $4 is nothing.
I understand that those that earn more will feel it less. It will all depend on how much money they still have after all their expenses (mortgages, etc.). I guess an equitable system can always be found, but it will have to be controlled somehow.
And also I don't particularly think the solution for low-income people is to tell them to use public transport. By relying solely on public transport (even a better sysytem) your opportunities are limited. For example...
I agree, but where possible make public transport their first option (as well as for other people).

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Re: #Article: Avoiding chaos from the boom

#37 Post by stelaras » Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:59 pm

Will wrote:
The value of money is different depending on your income. For example, a $4 toll is 'worth' more for a pensioner living on a pension as compared to someone earning $200K a year, for whom the value of $4 is nothing.

And also I don't particularly think the solution for low-income people is to tell them to use public transport. By relying solely on public transport (even a better sysytem) your opportunities are limited. For example, I study at Flinders University. I drive to uni, because from where I live, there is no direct bus going to the university. As a result I would first have to catch a bus to the city, and then another to the university. This would make it a 1.5 hour journey, as comapred to the 20 minutes it takes to drive. Even if the public transport system was improved, I doubt a bus from where I live to Flinders would be feasible. This is the basis of my arguement. There are occassions when people need to drive, and the most disadvantaged people in society should not have their opportunities limited by private roads.

WIll, you make a fair point moreover, im well aware of the value of money especially since i deal with a lot of people that can't afford medical bills etc. Im just arguing the other side of the equation and applying reality to the situation. In reality this wont work. A toll road is a user pays system, if you want to use it you have to pay for it. The builders of the tollway, don't care if you are a student, pensioner or war vet, they are providing a service for you, by building a road that speeds up your travel time between 2 points, they don't force you to use it.

As far as they are concerned, if you cant afford to use it then drive on the public roads!

There is no toll road in Australia (as far as iam aware) that has a category payment system.

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Re: #Article: Avoiding chaos from the boom

#38 Post by rhino » Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:20 pm

stelaras wrote: A toll road is a user pays system, if you want to use it you have to pay for it. The builders of the tollway, don't care if you are a student, pensioner or war vet, they are providing a service for you, by building a road that speeds up your travel time between 2 points, they don't force you to use it.
The trouble in this particular case is that you're talking about taking Adelaide's main north-south arterial through road and putting a toll on it. As I have said before, South Road should not be a toll road. If a new controlled access road is built, put a toll on that, but South Road should still be available free for use. Otherwise you are not just telling people "don't use our road if you don't want to" - you are saying "If you don't want to pay, you can travel a couple of miles out of your way because the road that used to be free now belongs to us".
cheers,
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Re: #Article: Avoiding chaos from the boom

#39 Post by Will » Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:27 pm

stelaras wrote:[


As far as they are concerned, if you cant afford to use it then drive on the public roads!

There is no toll road in Australia (as far as iam aware) that has a category payment system.
But this is my problem with toll roads. The most disadvantaged citizens of our community should not be treated like second class citizens. We can't have first class roads for the 'rich' and second-grade roads with pot holes and dozens of traffic lights for the poor. Such a scenario would increase the divide between the haves and the have nots in our society. By making poor people take longer to get from their destinations, you are reducing their ability to get better paid jobs.

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Re: #Article: Avoiding chaos from the boom

#40 Post by Cruise » Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:50 pm

stelaras wrote:so, what stops people taking in their pensioner fathers/mothers/ uncles/ aunts and saying saying the car is registered under his name and getting a concession?
That happens now with car regostration, people regesiter the car in their pensioner fathers/mothers (or a family/friend who lives in a rural area) name to avoid paying full rego.

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Re: #Article: Avoiding chaos from the boom

#41 Post by jimmy_2486 » Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:03 pm

rhino wrote:
stelaras wrote: A toll road is a user pays system, if you want to use it you have to pay for it. The builders of the tollway, don't care if you are a student, pensioner or war vet, they are providing a service for you, by building a road that speeds up your travel time between 2 points, they don't force you to use it.
The trouble in this particular case is that you're talking about taking Adelaide's main north-south arterial through road and putting a toll on it. As I have said before, South Road should not be a toll road. If a new controlled access road is built, put a toll on that, but South Road should still be available free for use. Otherwise you are not just telling people "don't use our road if you don't want to" - you are saying "If you don't want to pay, you can travel a couple of miles out of your way because the road that used to be free now belongs to us".
I think we don't need south road to be purely tolled and I don't think that will ever happen, but if it were to be widened and/or tunnels built underneath the existing south road then those sections would be appropriate for tolls. Because those who do not wish to pay can use the existing south road.

South road being widened would allow inside lanes to travel faster speeds and to be grade separated, even to travel under tunnels if needed. Also widening south road would allow us to have bus lanes to not be part of the congestion.

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Re: #Article: Avoiding chaos from the boom

#42 Post by Norman » Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:55 pm

Widening South Road is bascially impossible. It already costs us several million to have about 10 houses demolished for a simple underpass... imagine what you'd need to pay for the rest of it.

Tunnels is a good idea, but also expensive and would cause huge traffic problems during construction. And the tunnel wouldn't take a year, it would more likely take 5 or 6 years of reduced flow on South Road (which may have to be closed in some times), Marion Road and Goodwood Road, as well as local roads.

We need to use existing corridors more efficiently, such as train services and feeder busses that go to more than every 3rd suburb. The corridors are there already, they just need some investment.

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Re: #Article: Avoiding chaos from the boom

#43 Post by Shuz » Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:09 pm

Um, it was actually 70 something homes, not ten. Remember, they acquired 2 blocks in from South Road. Thats why it appears so wide at the intersection.
I think there is actually legislation in place that all new properties on South Road built have to be a minimum distance from the road to allow for future widening plans. I have noticed this with the case of the new industrial properties built on South Road between Cross Road and Edward Street. The Avoca Hotel site didn't follow suit, but I think thats because of the hotel's heritage.

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Re: #Article: Avoiding chaos from the boom

#44 Post by jimmy_2486 » Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:15 pm

normangerman wrote:Widening South Road is bascially impossible. It already costs us several million to have about 10 houses demolished for a simple underpass... imagine what you'd need to pay for the rest of it.

Tunnels is a good idea, but also expensive and would cause huge traffic problems during construction. And the tunnel wouldn't take a year, it would more likely take 5 or 6 years of reduced flow on South Road (which may have to be closed in some times), Marion Road and Goodwood Road, as well as local roads.

We need to use existing corridors more efficiently, such as train services and feeder busses that go to more than every 3rd suburb. The corridors are there already, they just need some investment.
lol....what corridors?? do we really have enough adequate corridors to reach the majority of inner metro houses?

I think we would need to make more if anything. Otherwise we will end up with Sydney's scenario where any new infrastructure will have to go underground.

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Re: #Article: Avoiding chaos from the boom

#45 Post by Norman » Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:57 pm

By corridors I meant rail corridors... and there is nothing wrong with subways. In fact, they are the most efficient means of transport IMO.

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