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Ho Really
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Re: #article: City lacks 'strategic planning'

#61 Post by Ho Really » Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:36 am

Anyone here have a strategic plan or parts of a total plan we could put together?

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Re: #Article: Avoiding chaos from the boom

#62 Post by Ben » Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:52 pm

A idea of things to come maybe. More offices.

From The Advertiser:
PepinNini, Sinosteel park here

CHRISTOPHER RUSSELL, BUSINESS EDITOR

September 10, 2007 01:45pm

EXPORTS of South Australian uranium to China moved a step closer today under a joint venture between an explorer and a Chinese minerals company. The partners have set up a new office in Adelaide.

In a move to help fast track development of the Crocker Well uranium mine in the far north-east of the state, the joint venture partners - PepinNini Minerals and Sinosteel - opened a new office in King William St, city.

``Already we are in discussion with various Government departments on approvals and requirements to develop the project,'' PepinNini managing director Norman Kennedy said.

Having its major office in Adelaide - as opposed to the company's registered headquarters in Sydney - would facilitate easy communication with SA authorities to expedite the project, which has a target of producing uranium by 2010.

Sinosteel is investing more than $40 million in the joint venture and will buy all of the uranium from the project, either for use in China or elsewhere.

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Lack of Major planning in Adelaide...

#63 Post by jimmy_2486 » Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:17 am

What dissapoints me is the city planners ability to come out with a major plan for Adelaide to revolutionise what we have. Instead we are kept in the dark about everything and every now and again we see a proposal for something to happen with no information on precisely what will follow on from this.

Example. Tram extension: They have added 1km of track to our light rail system and we have no idea what will follow?? Should have planned better and made a big proposal for many other inner city routes that could start if all goes will with the first stage.

South Road: The government has been wanting to upgrade South Road to freeway standards for a while now. So we get an underpass under anzac hwy.......... then what??

To me it seems as if all these improvements are just patch up jobs to help us in the short term (Something that has made Sydney what it is today, and only now they are starting to think more long term-ish).

Now Melbourne on the other hand have well presented long term master plans for alot of things they do, take for instance their airport master plan. They have planned to increase their airports usage to 4 runways, 5-6 terminals, runway extensions and loads more. All these plans are already dated when they are going to start, which are years away, but at least they have planned for it and have shown to the public their plans. This I belive is one of the reasons why Melbourne is one of the most efficient, but also livable cities in the world.

It just annoys me how Adelaide people have no friggin idea what the hell is gonna happen to this place, which leads me to believe that either they just dont want to tell us, or they have no real plans and are happy patching things up when needed.

I dunno who else feels the same... Id like to hear others comments on this?

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Re: Lack of Major planning in Adelaide...

#64 Post by Norman » Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:44 am

Supply and demand, mate. While in melbourne there will always demand for more infrastructure, adelaide does not i'm afraid. The SA government doesn't have billions of dollars lying around, i mean, we just came out of recession. We have to be careful with our budget for now anyway. Development plans cost money too, so they don't want to waste money on plans they might never use. Wait a few more years, maybe then we'll get something.

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Re: Lack of Major planning in Adelaide...

#65 Post by jimmy_2486 » Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:00 pm

Thats not the point Norman, just cos victoria has more money doesnt mean ONLY they can release plans for the long term and we cant.

Even if they decided that by say 2030 we will have light rail going into these specified suburbs and it will approx look like this.... etc etc. Then could say on this year we will extend the glenelg line to city west, then on this year we will make a city loop if all goes well with the current extension, then on this year we will make it goto port adelaide and we will do it like this....etc etc.

Just something to show us that they have a long term plan for our infrustructure.

If they want to put an extra 3-400 thousand people into adelaide by 2020, then I think somethink like this is needed.

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Re: Lack of Major planning in Adelaide...

#66 Post by Norman » Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:09 pm

Well, maybe they are still doing feasability studies on those suggestions ;)

They can't just come out roaring all these promises and not deliver.

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Re: Lack of Major planning in Adelaide...

#67 Post by rhino » Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:39 pm

Jimmy,

With regard to South Road we know that after the Anzac Highway underpass we are looking at an underpass below Port Road and Grange Road, and an underpass under Sturt Road. These have been announced and renders are available already.

The Northern Expressway has been anounced, along with the proposed route and a timeframe for completion.

The tramway loop has been anounced - the Grey St and Grote St extensions. Since the current 1.1km extension is the first in 50-odd years, it would have been folly to anounce much more without waiting to see how the first extension is accepted - you have to grant them that.

The Marjorie Jackson-Nelson Hospital is a huge piece of infrastructure that has been anounced, along with a timetable for completion.

Re-sleepering of the Noarlunga Rail Line with gauge-convertable concrete sleepers has been anounced - leading the way to gauge-converting the whole metro train system (the Outer Harbour line has already been done).

A desalination plant has been anounced, along with doubling the capacity of Mount Bold Reservoir.

How much do you want? There is only so much money available.
cheers,
Rhino

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Re: Lack of Major planning in Adelaide...

#68 Post by frank1 » Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:14 pm

Yeh i think your right jimmy. If the government preposed their plans there would be alot less people complaining e.g. all tram extensions, general cbd development, heavy transport infrastructure, etc. Then people know exactly what the government is doing and stands for.

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Re: Lack of Major planning in Adelaide...

#69 Post by jimmy_2486 » Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:26 pm

rhino wrote:Jimmy,

With regard to South Road we know that after the Anzac Highway underpass we are looking at an underpass below Port Road and Grange Road, and an underpass under Sturt Road. These have been announced and renders are available already.

The Northern Expressway has been anounced, along with the proposed route and a timeframe for completion.

The tramway loop has been anounced - the Grey St and Grote St extensions. Since the current 1.1km extension is the first in 50-odd years, it would have been folly to anounce much more without waiting to see how the first extension is accepted - you have to grant them that.

The Marjorie Jackson-Nelson Hospital is a huge piece of infrastructure that has been anounced, along with a timetable for completion.

Re-sleepering of the Noarlunga Rail Line with gauge-convertable concrete sleepers has been anounced - leading the way to gauge-converting the whole metro train system (the Outer Harbour line has already been done).

A desalination plant has been anounced, along with doubling the capacity of Mount Bold Reservoir.

How much do you want? There is only so much money available.
Thats not my point rhino.

Basically before the government went ahead with the tram extension, south road underpass, northern expressway etc. They should had engaged in making a CLEAR plan that states exactly what will be the end result, for our roads and for our PT system, and dates when each stage in the development will start and end, even if it will take say 20-30 years.

Example: The Government should had come out with a long term plan to make a non-stop freeway linking adelaides north to the south. First stage is the port river, next will happen the anzac underpass, then the northern expressway etc etc. They should make it CLEAR what their actual LONG term plans are.
Instead they said they are gonna do an underpass, then they said quite randomly that they wanna do the northern expressway. They said they WANT to do the port road underpass but what garuntee is there that it will happen??

If money is the issue, then still have this plan but just stretch these dates out even further. At least we are in the know about whats goin on. Because without this master plan, it all seems like patch up work.

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Re: Lack of Major planning in Adelaide...

#70 Post by rhino » Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:03 pm

jimmy_2486 wrote:
Example: The Government should had come out with a long term plan to make a non-stop freeway linking adelaides north to the south. First stage is the port river, next will happen the anzac underpass, then the northern expressway etc etc. They should make it CLEAR what their actual LONG term plans are.
Instead they said they are gonna do an underpass, then they said quite randomly that they wanna do the northern expressway. They said they WANT to do the port road underpass but what garuntee is there that it will happen??

If money is the issue, then still have this plan but just stretch these dates out even further. At least we are in the know about whats goin on. Because without this master plan, it all seems like patch up work.
This is not practical. Who could have guessed, in the early 1980s when things were going great here in SA, that within ten years we would be broke? Who knew ten years ago how rich SA was going to be because of mineral wealth? Who knew that we would win defense contracts to the point where we became the "Defense State"? Who knew that, having never suffered urban water crises in this state, in 2006 we were going to be looking down the barrell? You can put forward ideas, but as soon as you try to put dates on things way into the future, you get held to them, you can't stretch them out further without losing credibility. The public, and especially the Opposition in Parliament, will complain until the cows come home that "You said we would have this by now! More empty promises! You just tell us what we want to hear and then you can't deliver!" etc etc etc.

If the Govt had said, in 2000, "We're going to drought-proof Adelaide", they would have been accused of wasting public money, because we didn't even have water rationing before.

If the Govt said, in 1980, "We're going to convert our rail lines to Standard Gauge in case the state-based railway regime ends, same deal, wasting public money. It's not gonna happen. But it did, didn't it?

Where do you, Jimmy, think the planning money should be going in 2027, and why? You have to justify it, you can't say "because I reckon...". Because the Government is not allowed to say "Because we reckon ..."
cheers,
Rhino

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Re: Lack of Major planning in Adelaide...

#71 Post by crawf » Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:37 pm

well said rhino

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Re: Lack of Major planning in Adelaide...

#72 Post by urban » Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:06 pm

Rhino the State Govt has put out a Strategic Plan which has targets for population growth, increase in public transport, sustainability etc. which is commendable.

What they haven't done is say how they plan to reach those goals. For example they have announced a population target of 2,000,000. Where are the extra 600,000 going to live, where will they work, how are they going to travel, where will the water and power come from?

On top of this how do we as a state cope with the changing climate?

All these questions need to be answered with a flexible masterplan. Maybe tying the plan to economic or population goals instead of fixed dates will achieve the flexibility needed. Infrastructure projects can take anywhere between 5 and 20 years to complete so the govt must be making plans now for what happens in 20 years time otherwise they are failing in their job. The lack of plans for our public transport system over the last 20 years is why our train system is now in dire need of an upgrade.

People such as Prof Mike Young have been warning for 20 years that Adelaide's reliance on the Murray for water was unsustainable. Other experts have been warning about Adelaide's transport problems for years. The defence contracts are not just an accident, they were deliberately targeted by this govt and the previous one. The mining boom has happened because the govt has dramatically reduced the royalties charged for mineral exploration.

Bad govt's just fix problems as they come up. Good govt's plan for the future. Great govt's get the plans right.

Victoria when Jeff Kennett took over was in the same position as SA was when John Bannon was dumped. Their economic fortunes have turned around because they took the hard decisions and made their plans.

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Re: Lack of Major planning in Adelaide...

#73 Post by rhino » Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:44 pm

Some good points raised there Urban, I especially agree with this one: Maybe tying the plan to economic or population goals instead of fixed dates will achieve the flexibility needed. It's something that would cause a lot less angst within the populace and especially within the ranks of Parliamentary opposition.

As far as coping with the changing climate and the water shortage, while there have been experts warning about these issues for decades, until it happens the general public wants their money (and remember we haven't got as much as Victoria, and we have a much larger area to spend it on) spent on today's problems. MHS is saying that Rann should have thought about drought-proofing long before this, but the previous govt didn't want to deal with it either, did they? and why? Mike Young had warned them too, but it wasn't a problem yet.Ask the average man in the street why we should have a controlled access road from north to south through the Adelaide Metro Area. He will say because South Road is a bitch to drive on, it's too crowded. He won't mention the that the freight transport task is going to double between now and 2020.

I never sugested that the defense contracts were an accident, but even right up until we won the last one, we couldn't count on it, Victoria was sure they were going to get it.

And Victoria's infrastructure is not looking as good as you suggest. Melbourne's is pretty good, but get further out and their roads (other than the freeways) are crap. Their rail freight infrastructure is some of the worst in the country.
cheers,
Rhino

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Re: Lack of Major planning in Adelaide...

#74 Post by jimmy_2486 » Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:12 pm

rhino wrote:
And Victoria's infrastructure is not looking as good as you suggest. Melbourne's is pretty good, but get further out and their roads (other than the freeways) are crap. Their rail freight infrastructure is some of the worst in the country.
Yes but thats not the point.

Every State has its problems that need to be resolved but the SA government is not thorough enough in explaining their plans and what will be involved in reaching their goals.

We are all crying out for a better rail system, and the governments answer is to just randomly come out of the blue and say we are going to add 1km of light rail track. Now is that a long term approach or a short term fix? They say we might even add more, but thats just media talk, and not really good enough. And to our heavy rail system.....does anyone have a clue of its future???.....kinda scary!!

And what urban said is an extension to what im trying to say. They say they have a long term plan to add half a million people to our state.....????????? ok.......how they gonna do that?? how will this city ensure that our roads dont go into gridlock, our PT systems become overcrowded and many other issues???? They just come out and say, we have a plan to add half a million people to the state by a certain date????

So in what u said rhino, you seem to think that our state is completely incompetant in meeing targets and delivering. Our state was bound to be screwed regardless if we had a master plan or not during the 90s.

All we need is a visionary plan put forward to the people of adelaide to say, this is a fesable proposal that will help us over the long term with our roads, our airport, our PT, or whatever. It will include what is involved, why is it needed, what issues it will adress, and whatever else is needed. Over time changes happen, so the master plan is usually modified to accomodate those changes. Melbournes master plan for its airport gets updated every 3 years.

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Re: Lack of Major planning in Adelaide...

#75 Post by urban » Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:31 pm

The infrastructure problems are as much if not more the Libs fault. They barely spent a cent on infrastructure during their term because they were focused on getting our monetary debt down. What they didn't pay attention to was the growing infrastructure debt they were creating.

When they needed to supply additional water to the barossa valley vineyards they chose to connect to the Murray pipeline instead of a water recycling plant which many of the community were arguing for. Both projects had similar construction costs but they took the backwards looking project. It's a bit hypocritical for MHS to be arguing about drought proofing.

We don't have as much money as Vic which means we have to spend it more wisely. We can not afford to have to redo infrastructure projects which is why we have to have a masterplan for our infrastructure. We need to plan for population and industry growth.

One thing I have noticed designing buildings for council's and businesses is that those that have developed a good masterplan and followed it are now in much better shape than those who haven't. One manufacturing company had to demolish a 2 year old shed so that they could expand another section of their business. The $5k saved by not doing a masterplan cost them $100k.

Expand that up to city level and the potential costs are billions of dollars.

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