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Brando
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Re: Lack of Major planning in Adelaide...

#76 Post by Brando » Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:37 pm

Jimmy, i understand what you are saying.

The SA government, at present is doing well, i think most peoplpe would agree. However as you say there seems to be very few 'long term' plans for this state. Regardless of whether or not they will be in power at such point in time, but careful and due planning for the future must brought to our attention so appropriate debate, planning and most of all problem solving can be addressed. So when it comes time to inplement such changes, all avenues have been explored.
Harbo (if you happen to read this), i read with a grin on my face the councils agenda of Rundle Mall and Vic square.... Now there is a difference here, this is not major planning, this is history repeating itself. I for one don't want to hear of your plans as such, I want action very soon.... We want to know what your plans are at length and how you intend to implement them. Just get on with it, i can almost promise you that a no nonsense approach will win you more support than a cautious approach. Make the big decisions that will benefit the whole of Adelaide. I shopped in the city on Friday night and it was great, the city does have a real vibe to now. Build on it, give us the excitment we want to want to come in to the city even more. Remember, the young are the future. So build and plan a city for them.

I read with interest other capital cities plans and ideas for the long term future. We have only dribs and drabs of future planning for the city of Adelaide and our state. Yes, there are plans out there, reports, recommendations, thinkers in residence etc and many do have merit, but go further and tell us how, what needs to be done now, future ramifications, cost, benefits, growth...

Urban, you have raised some great points, but i do ask a genuine question. Do you think many governments around Australia or the world for that matter would bulid the 'Marj' at it's proposed location? To me it's just a disaster building it there, an absolute waste of future potential. Now this is what Jimmy is talking about, The Marj is proposed a little further along the railyards and maybe the Government do have plans for the rest of the site???
If they do, why don't they tell us so we can really get down to it and think what really will be best for us on this particular site. In it's appropriate thread, many have questioned it's practibility, such as access. If we knew what the entire plans for the precinct were, maybe we could be satisfied knowing what else is in store, But yet again we are left to ponder and assume.

I have said it before and many planners are saying the same thing, Adelaide does not connect, we don't have any flow about our cities attractions of focal points of tourists. If the council had plans to make King William St the spine of Adelaide, tell us how they plan to do this, lifting height retrictions is a start, but go further. Give incentive to ground floor shop ownwers to stay open longer, encourage new business, public art and lighting, give tourist and locals a reason to be there, simple light shows at night, buskers, stalls etc. All the more the reason why big, major plans are required for Vic Square. Light the sqaure up at night, not just a few fairy lights in the odd tree. Attract people to it, give them a reason to be there, give them a crowd to follow with curiosity and watch King William St prosper as a rusult. Every landlord, developer, investor will clamber for a slice of the action. Where there is a crowd, a dollar can be made.

Seriously i think we all here have better plans and ideas for the future of Adelaide than those running the state. I'm not saying we can run or control the state, but at least listen to us, those that wish nothing but the best for the city of Adelaide, because our dreams may in fact be those of the majority of the people that live in this great city we call home.

It is now time to inspire us and those abroad.

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Re: Lack of Major planning in Adelaide...

#77 Post by rogue » Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:57 pm

Part of the problem is our current political system. Politicians are only elected for a short term and are only interested in what benefits themselves. Perhaps if they planned for the long term, they may just get re-elected to implement the said plan.

Show loyalty and vision to voters and you will be rewarded.

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Re: Lack of Major planning in Adelaide...

#78 Post by jimmy_2486 » Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:59 pm

Actually I think I have figured out what the States Master Plan is for 2007-2030......... Maintain our AAA credit rating!!

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Re: Lack of Major planning in Adelaide...

#79 Post by JamesXander » Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:10 pm

The only thing to look forward to is a monolith hospital on North Terrace... the Cultural Hub of SA???


I totally agree with Jimmy. What about the Government comes out and says, we want to have all this infrastructure built by 2022 for Adelaide to host the Commonwealth games. Get ready to revolutionise South Australia, restore it to its former glory.

And I think thats the key, it may sound stupid, but the Commonwealth games. Thats the date, the motivation to do all this work and transform our great state. At the moment all we have to look forward to is a couple of km's of tram line and a shrinking grand stand in Vic Park.

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Re: Lack of Major planning in Adelaide...

#80 Post by crawf » Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:08 pm

Plus over $30billion worth of projects

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Re: Lack of Major planning in Adelaide...

#81 Post by jimmy_2486 » Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:30 pm

It has nothing to do with how much money the government has spent on our state. Its the way in which the government is planning to fund future improvements.

Besides if the government has spent bucket loads of money like your proposing crawf, then that would deem rhinos post void as he mentions that we dont have the money to start promising big things for the state, which you agreed with??

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Re: Lack of Major planning in Adelaide...

#82 Post by crawf » Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:49 pm

Most of that $30 billion is private investment or for the future mining and defense boom

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Re: Lack of Major planning in Adelaide...

#83 Post by jimmy_2486 » Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:52 pm

So what does that have to do with the governments inability to create a more detailed long term plan for the state?

Your just stating how much money private investors have invested.

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Re: Lack of Major planning in Adelaide...

#84 Post by crawf » Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:06 am

Sorry I misread JamesXanders comment I thought he talking about all organizations in SA and what they had planned for SA's future, but later realized he was talking about only the State Government. Sorry its been a long day :oops:

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Re: Lack of Major planning in Adelaide...

#85 Post by jimmy_2486 » Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:16 am

thats ok......uve been shown the light now!!

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Re: Lack of Major planning in Adelaide...

#86 Post by Bulldozer » Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:52 am

I agree Jimmy, there is no long-term cohesive plan for what Adelaide, or SA, will be.

Someone said there are plans: underpasses, desalination, hopsitals, etc. but the reality is that they are mostly haphazard, reactionary plans. The desal is a classic - for years desalination was derided until Adelaide is at absolute crisis point with water and the public is screaming out for it and then they announce it, but don't yet know where it will go or anything. It was simply an attempt to appease the voters before they staged a coup or something. The hospital typically just came out of nowhere with no consideration for what the medical community wants, in fact it goes against what the medical community wanted in the "generational health review" by centralising everything.

The government is not doing a good job, I seriously question the judgement of anyone who looks at the big picture and still says that. Stop saying "well the Liberals did nothing!" because that's a cop-out. That was then, this is now and the problems have been known and growing yet ignored and Rann has been around for half a decade. Hell, Rann himself set up the "Waterproofing Adelaide" study/report years ago and has done stuff-all about it. The "strategic plan" is a joke, it's a typical wishy-washy "aspirational" bunch of words with no concrete strategies laid out for acheiving the goals.

What we need is a plan that looks at where we are today and where we want to be by 20xx. The plan then needs to spell out what is required to achieve that and when it will be required. E.g. we want to quadruple the population of the square mile - work out the expected growth rate to acheive that and then look at what needs to be done to accomodate that: more capacity for water, power, gas, communications, sewage. Are current supplies of these things adequate enough to meet the increased demand? If not, how much more of them will we need and when will they need to be available? Will we need additional schools, hospitals, fire, ambulance and police stations? Where will they need to go and when will they need to be built? What forms of transport will be able to support that population and which one(s) do we want to use? What is the lifespan of existing infrastructure and when will it need to be replaced if it still adequate?

It's simple and logical stuff and it's not concerned with the little micromanagement details like what pavers to use on footpaths or what sort of power station to build. All it needs to say is by 20xx it's anticipated X additional megawatts will be needed and that current capacity Y will be exceeded by 20yy. Leave it up to the power people to work out the best way to provide it - they might decide on building a plant that provides X/3 every number of years or they might decide to build a single plant that provides 2*X so they can decomission an older plant that isn't as economic.

It doesn't have to be accurate to the month or year because shit happens, but it does need to be a logical set of steps to take to achieve the goals. E.g. we choose to use trams in the city, so we better make sure we get the underground services all upgraded before we lay down the tram tracks and position them correctly so if something happens to them in the future we don't have to dig up the tram tracks to get at them. If money becomes tight and it turns out laying tram tracks is cheaper than upgrading underground services we have a plan that says don't lay the tracks - hold off until the services are done.

But maybe this does all exist... if it does then it's not being publicised, which is important so that people know what the plan for the future is. Classic point is the Victor Harbor Road & Main South Road intersection - people say "build an overpass, put in traffic lights" and the local Labor candidate announced a plan to "fix" it by adding a heap of lanes and widening Main South Road between there and the Onkaparinga. It seems nobody knows of the district development plan that was drawn up by the then Noarlunga Council before Seaford Rise was developed. It has northbound Victor Harbor Road traffic being diverted along Robinson Road to the traffic light intersection with Main South Road and Griffith Drive, while the northbound lane on Victor Harbor Road between Robinson Road and Main South Road becomes a second southbound lane. The land is already set aside for it!

I'll be quiet now :)

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Re: Lack of Major planning in Adelaide...

#87 Post by rhino » Fri Nov 02, 2007 7:51 am

Bulldozer wrote: But maybe this does all exist... if it does then it's not being publicised, which is important so that people know what the plan for the future is. Classic point is the Victor Harbor Road & Main South Road intersection - people say "build an overpass, put in traffic lights" and the local Labor candidate announced a plan to "fix" it by adding a heap of lanes and widening Main South Road between there and the Onkaparinga. It seems nobody knows of the district development plan that was drawn up by the then Noarlunga Council before Seaford Rise was developed. It has northbound Victor Harbor Road traffic being diverted along Robinson Road to the traffic light intersection with Main South Road and Griffith Drive, while the northbound lane on Victor Harbor Road between Robinson Road and Main South Road becomes a second southbound lane. The land is already set aside for it!
Bulldozer, I suspect you have hit the nail on the head here. I find it hard to believe that there is no forward planning, only reactionary planning. In the case of the water crisis, the planning is reactionary, but not in all cases.

The tramline, for instance - ideas have been put forward about extending the tram service to cover the inner metro - not fully detailed plans, but a concept. The first 1.5km was built amidst huge outcry, and now it is a success, it's time to develop the concept. But there's no point in having detailed proposals for the whole system if after the first part has been laid you find out that the public don't like it and aren't using it.

The northern expressway has been in the pipeline for several years, it's not a new thing. The Port River Expressway was planned at the same time as the South Road Connector (to Salisbury Hwy) but didn't get built for several years afterwards - still, the plan was there.

As for where all these new South Australians are going to live - one plan is obviously the Playford area - where there is new land being opened up not only for housing but for business and industry as well. Another is obviously down south where the Urban Growth Boundary changes have been proposed. The plan to move the major prisons to Murray Bridge will take years to implement, but now you know that Murray Bridge is a future growth area because of all the work those jails will create - each security guard and administrator and janitor etc is going to have a family, they will require services - and those service providers will have families etc.

In essence, I suspect that there has been a lot more planned than we know about, and if so, yes, lets see the ideas. I don't believe the infrastructure we have been getting is piecemeal, haphazzard and not linked to any future plan. There will always, of necessity, be some reactionary planning, because obviously not everything can be seen in advance.

This is a very interesting thread.
cheers,
Rhino

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Re: Lack of Major planning in Adelaide...

#88 Post by frank1 » Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:10 am

[quote="Bulldozer"] Someone said there are plans: underpasses, desalination, hopsitals, etc. but the reality is that they are mostly haphazard, reactionary plans. The desal is a classic - for years desalination was derided until Adelaide is at absolute crisis point with water and the public is screaming out for it and then they announce it, but don't yet know where it will go or anything. It was simply an attempt to appease the voters before they staged a coup or something. The hospital typically just came out of nowhere with no consideration for what the medical community wants, in fact it goes against what the medical community wanted in the "generational health review" by centralising everything.

speaking of planning, why do people think that something as large as a desalinisation plant can be just built in a few weeks. This scale of project would take years of planning, not just location, but the environmental, social, economic imapcts of the entire area. This needs to be planned properly as it can't
just be a rushed 'quicky' as it would create long term effects. This also goes for any major infrastructure project.

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Re: Lack of Major planning in Adelaide...

#89 Post by urban » Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:36 pm

Well said Bulldozer.

The strategic plan is only worthy of being the preamble for the actual plan.

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Re: Lack of Major planning in Adelaide...

#90 Post by metalMONSTER » Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:23 pm

Who are any of you to criticise planning.

What knowledge do you think that you have which no one else has.

As someone who has been involved with public projects I can tell you that there are many plans which exist that the public wouldnt know exist. What is the point of telling everyone what is going on. The public will winge and bitch about everything without understanding what is involved, as they dont have the proffessional qualifications or experience to understand. Much like majority of yourselves.

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