#Official Defence Thread

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Re: #Official Defence Thread

#226 Post by Goodsy » Thu Apr 21, 2016 5:34 pm

Apparently Germany is about to be declared the winner of the sub contract, according to whoever was talking on FiveAA when I turned it on

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Re: #Official Defence Thread

#227 Post by [Shuz] » Fri Apr 22, 2016 7:48 am

I saw a glimpse of television advertising last night from ThysenKrupp. I assume they'd won the submarine contract. Surely that means there will be an Adelaide build (I think that was part of their submission).
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Re: #Official Defence Thread

#228 Post by phenom » Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:58 am

[Shuz] wrote:I saw a glimpse of television advertising last night from ThysenKrupp. I assume they'd won the submarine contract. Surely that means there will be an Adelaide build (I think that was part of their submission).
Saw the same thing and found it very peculiar. It did seem more than an advert spruiking their wares but didn't seem to overtly say they would be the builder. Just very odd.

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Re: #Official Defence Thread

#229 Post by Goodsy » Fri Apr 22, 2016 10:03 am

A German build means ThyssenKrupp will be buying ASC right?

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Re: #Official Defence Thread

#230 Post by phenom » Fri Apr 22, 2016 10:36 am

So after all the garbage about how expensive it is to build submarines in Australia blah blah with zero mention of the ever blowing out cost of the JSF or pretty much every other defence procurement in Australia, whether domestic or imported, and Abbott's attempted mega-freebie to the Japanese without any actual evaluation program (wow), you know it's bad when the person running ThyssenKrupp in Australia says:

“We are surprised that there is continuing lack of confidence in Australian industry capability, given previous successes, like the ANZAC Frigates Project, in which the ship design was provided by Thyssenkrupp’s Blohm+Voss: It seems un-Australian. [emphasis mine]”

The talking down of Australian industry (defence, auto, you name it) by the Abbott Government was absurd and damaging.

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Re: #Official Defence Thread

#231 Post by rev » Fri Apr 22, 2016 12:40 pm

TKMS are talking up Australian industry with specific mention of the ANZAC frigates because the design was their design....they even say it. It's a blatant thinly veiled self promotion.

I believe the rumor that the German TKMS is going to be awarded the contract for the submarines is circulating because of AdelaideNow/The Advertiser.
That's the only place I've seen any mention of that specifically.
What people who call up 5AA and say is quite often false or misleading.

Pretty much every defence procurement program in most countries runs over budget.
Because defence contractors tell governments what they want to hear so they win the contract. They are private corporations accountable to their shareholders not you the tax payer.
Then once they've won the contract and billions have been paid and they are past the point of no return, oh shit suddenly we've got cost blow outs and governments have no choice but to pay.

With the F35 program..what other options do all these countries have? There's no other aircraft like it in development. It's either stick with 4th and 4.5 gen aircraft, or pay overs on the 5th gen F35. Unless you want to switch sides to the Russians/East and get the PAK-FA T50 which is 5th gen. Or maybe the Chinese 5th gen fighters..they are developing at least two.

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Re: #Official Defence Thread

#232 Post by phenom » Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:21 pm

rev wrote:TKMS are talking up Australian industry with specific mention of the ANZAC frigates because the design was their design....they even say it. It's a blatant thinly veiled self promotion.
Yes, I did read my own quote :P . My point was that the previous Prime Minister was prepared to talk his own country down to secure a deal with Abe because it suited US interests.
rev wrote:I believe the rumor that the German TKMS is going to be awarded the contract for the submarines is circulating because of AdelaideNow/The Advertiser.
That's the only place I've seen any mention of that specifically.
What people who call up 5AA and say is quite often false or misleading.
Well it's actually across a lot more media sources than that - everything from the Wall Street Journal, the ABC and of course the other Murdoch papers. Yes, it's still a rumour.

Interestingly enough the WSJ article has at the end a bit saying Japanese industry (versus Abe himself) are lukewarm on winning it because they don't see it as a very profitable venture.
rev wrote:Pretty much every defence procurement program in most countries runs over budget.
Because defence contractors tell governments what they want to hear so they win the contract. They are private corporations accountable to their shareholders not you the tax payer.
Then once they've won the contract and billions have been paid and they are past the point of no return, oh shit suddenly we've got cost blow outs and governments have no choice but to pay.
Yes, and therefore it's odd that so many of the people against building submarines in Australia (wherever, SA or elsewhere) have used the cost argument repeatedly without this understanding. The litany of multi-billion dollar defence fiascos suggests the problem remains in procurement, not whether things are built in Australia or not.

Even the Japanese have responded (to the rumours they are running 3rd of the 3 contenders to provide our new submarines) by saying they will undertake whatever engineering changes are required. Err... any changes at all even to an existing design of a submarine are expensive... the Collins class anyone? :roll:

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Re: #Official Defence Thread

#233 Post by Goodsy » Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:40 pm


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Re: #Official Defence Thread

#234 Post by skyliner » Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:57 pm

We get to build the 12 subs!!!! :D :D :D :D Also other work as well. The so called 'valley of death' now replaced by hope, work and a defense future here. (all from Turnbull's announcement when here in Adelaide today).

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Re: #Official Defence Thread

#235 Post by Vee » Wed Apr 27, 2016 7:17 am

Good news about the submarine build, jobs for SA and the local economy. However, the contract has not been signed and details are scant.

Snippets and questions about the announcement.
France is reporting 4,000 jobs as a result of this but Australia gets 2800?
The sub has not yet been designed.
The local build must include the supply chain. Hopefully, some local firms transitioning from the car industry will be able to take up opportunities. Worried about the long delay between car industry closure and subs startup.
And will our Whyalla steelyard be able to supply the steel used in the hull?

From the AFR:
Since the contract is unlikely to be signed before the government goes into caretaker mode, Labor's defence spokesman Senator Stephen Conroy was asked what he would change to the subs contract. He addressed concerns France's DCNS would attempt to embed French companies in the supply chain.

"What we do know is that both publicly and privately, and DCNS have made this point publicly...their preference is to build at least the first submarine in France. And there's a really important reason for this. Because if the first submarine is built in France, what you will see is the supply chain, the component parts, all of those will come and be sourced from French companies or their normal suppliers.

"We would ensure that the contract specified that the 12 submarines MUST be built in Adelaide," Senator Conroy said.
AFR:
http://www.afr.com/news/politics/electi ... 425-goesut

Mr Xenophon has stated he wants to see the details of the contract.

News outlets are reporting opportunities for Holden workers to retrain? But the Subs won't start production before the mid 20s. And many workers at ASC have lost jobs this year. Surely they would get priority, if they are still around?

Details of the contract a peripheral issue - Pyne on SkyNews.
Peripheral?
http://snpy.tv/26qFsD6

ABCNews reports on a huge new factory needed.
Good news for our construction industry.
DCNS Australia's chief executive officer Sean Costello said the first priority would be creating a new factory in Adelaide.

"It will be a bit larger than the Adelaide cricket ground and will bring in all of the most modern tools in advanced manufacturing."
ABCNews:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-26/s ... al/7360906

4000 jobs in France (in French)
LeMonde:
http://www.lemonde.fr/entreprises/artic ... 56994.html

Plot thickens....? Role for NSW?
ABC reported that...
Defence Minister, Payne's partner (Ayres) tried to get a meeting with the winning French tenderer (DCNS) in the week before the announcement.
Curious development in light of his role as NSW Trade Minister?

Ayres:
I have engaged with Japanese at the request of the Premier and German industry representatives to promote NSW industry opportunities as part of the CEP.

"I congratulate DCNS on winning the bid and look forward to discussing with them opportunities for NSW businesses to participate in the future submarine program."
Senator Payne said it was too early to suggest whether NSW would benefit from the submarine project being awarded to DCNS, because the vessels were still being designed.
"This is truly going to be a national endeavour, or a national enterprise, whatever you would like to call it."
ABCNews:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-27/d ... ct/7361472
Last edited by Vee on Wed Apr 27, 2016 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: #Official Defence Thread

#236 Post by claybro » Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:10 am

Vee wrote:Mr Xenophon has stated he wants to see the details of the contract.
Now I understand Mr Xenophon wants to make sure all to details are legit, but I would much prefer he spent his time spruiking a better deal for SA rather than pick holes in the work of others. I mean, what was the last multi billion dollar deal for the state he brokered? How has this guy got so much cred and face time with the media anyway?

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Re: #Official Defence Thread

#237 Post by rev » Wed Apr 27, 2016 5:52 pm

claybro wrote:
Vee wrote:Mr Xenophon has stated he wants to see the details of the contract.
Now I understand Mr Xenophon wants to make sure all to details are legit, but I would much prefer he spent his time spruiking a better deal for SA rather than pick holes in the work of others. I mean, what was the last multi billion dollar deal for the state he brokered? How has this guy got so much cred and face time with the media anyway?
How's he going to secure a better deal for us if the details of the deal with DCNS aren't known?
You have to know what you are dealing with to know whether you need to push for better or not.

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Re: #Official Defence Thread

#238 Post by Wayno » Thu Apr 28, 2016 10:03 am

rev wrote:
claybro wrote:
Vee wrote:Mr Xenophon has stated he wants to see the details of the contract.
Now I understand Mr Xenophon wants to make sure all to details are legit, but I would much prefer he spent his time spruiking a better deal for SA rather than pick holes in the work of others. I mean, what was the last multi billion dollar deal for the state he brokered? How has this guy got so much cred and face time with the media anyway?
How's he going to secure a better deal for us if the details of the deal with DCNS aren't known?
You have to know what you are dealing with to know whether you need to push for better or not.
There will be a myriad of bigger and smaller opportunities to ensure the best for SA & Australia. Start with the big picture strategic stuff like ensuring the first sub is built here to establish our local supply chain. Another big picture opportunity might be to push DCNS to plug Australian supply chain company's in their other global operations. In fact it'll likely be too late to influence in this way once fine-point details are agreed & published.
Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.

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Re: #Official Defence Thread

#239 Post by ghs » Wed Jul 06, 2016 7:16 pm

Raytheon to develop Woomera Test Range System
27 Jun 2016

Raytheon Australia will partner with the Commonwealth to develop the Test Range System within the Woomera Prohibited Area of South Australia.

The $297 million contract seeks to revamp Woomera as the world's most advanced military test range.

The upgraded area, which will see Raytheon double its current Adelaide workforce of 370, will be used to test the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter's performance and will be also available for use by US and other allies for various weapons systems and rocket test programs.

CEO Michael Ward said the company welcomed this investment by the Australian Government in the local defence industry and high skilled Australian jobs.

“This is an investment in a home grown sovereign capability as well as in the safety and security of our nation”, Ward said.

As a result, the new Adelaide naval and Integration Office opened today by the Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull will be home to a new Test and Training Range Systems Integration laboratory. Adelaide will also be home to the second Raytheon Australian Submarine Industry Incubator, complementing the existing Incubator in Sydney and giving local businesses the opportunity to engage in combat system integration work for Australia’s Submarines.

Ward said that Adelaide is now the headquarters of Raytheon Australia’s Naval and Integration workforce.

“For more than a decade, Raytheon Australia has had a strong presence in Adelaide. Today’s opening of our newest office – and our ambition to more than double our South Australian workforce within three years – confirms our commitment to Adelaide."

Adelaide will be the focus of Raytheon Australia’s efforts related to the Future Submarine project should the company be selected as Combat System Integrator. Raytheon Australia’s plan for the project, drawing on our ready now workforce, is for sustainable, long term, highly skilled work in Australia for Australians. From day one the company will use Australians, not a fly in, fly out workforce from another country. The company will also draw upon its established relationships with 500 Australian small to medium enterprises.

Michael Ward said that the Incubator further demonstrates the company’s commitment to assisting innovative Australian businesses in playing an active role in Australia’s submarine combat systems.

“This is about real submarine work for Australians. The Incubator aims to create new and sustainable submarine combat systems work right here in this country”, Mr Ward said.

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Re: #Official Defence Thread

#240 Post by Pistol » Mon Sep 12, 2016 10:27 am

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Hobart leaves wharf
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First day of builder's trials
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