News & Discussion: The 30 Year Plan for Greater Adelaide

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rev
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Re: News & Discussion: The 30 Year Plan for Greater Adelaide

#121 Post by rev » Tue May 30, 2017 3:48 pm

Rebuild the economy? With what population? I don't understand how you address the current malaise with supply-side stimulus.
Do you realize unemployment in this state is edging higher and higher, it's currently over 7%. Wait till Holden actually does shut down later this year along with component makers.

With what population you say? With the huge portion of the population that has no bloody job, that's with what population.
Give businesses more tax cuts? Let them off the hook for penalty rates? How does that increase economic activity?
I dunno, you tell me, you're the economic expert who thinks bringing more people(people with no skills or education and little to no English) into a place that has a rising unemployment rate is a good way to stimulate an economy.

There isn't enough jobs for the people already living here and this guy wants to bring more people here. :wallbash:

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Re: News & Discussion: The 30 Year Plan for Greater Adelaide

#122 Post by Nathan » Tue May 30, 2017 4:17 pm

Why the generalisation that migrants are unskilled, uneducated, and speak little English?

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Re: News & Discussion: The 30 Year Plan for Greater Adelaide

#123 Post by Llessur2002 » Tue May 30, 2017 4:44 pm

rev wrote:bringing more people(people with no skills or education and little to no English)
Not that I agree with the above description of having no skills or education by any means, but are you referring to immigrants who arrive as refugees as opposed migrants who arrive under skilled/business visa pathways?

When correctly managed, the skilled visa programs should bring in skilled workers that we simply do not have enough of - thus essential to help our economy grow. We can't just magic up, for example, electrical engineers overnight if we need them but we can bring them in via the appropriate visa in a much shorter time than it would take to pour government money into attracting students to electrical engineering degrees and then waiting another 3 to 4 years for them to graduate.
Last edited by Llessur2002 on Tue May 30, 2017 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: News & Discussion: The 30 Year Plan for Greater Adelaide

#124 Post by mshagg » Tue May 30, 2017 4:59 pm

rev wrote:(people with no skills or education and little to no English)
Engaging with you on this is clearly not a fruitful pursuit, but if anything good is to come from it, at least walk away understanding that the vast vast majority of Australia's migration program is that of skilled workers. No, not those 457 visas that everyone has you all stirred up about. Not humanitarian visas.

Just a plain old skilled migration program.

You know.

The one our entire country was built with.

Do you think the 70,000 people that migrate to NSW every year have open jobs waiting for them?

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Re: News & Discussion: The 30 Year Plan for Greater Adelaide

#125 Post by rev » Wed May 31, 2017 9:08 am

mshagg wrote:
rev wrote:(people with no skills or education and little to no English)
Engaging with you on this is clearly not a fruitful pursuit, but if anything good is to come from it, at least walk away understanding that the vast vast majority of Australia's migration program is that of skilled workers. No, not those 457 visas that everyone has you all stirred up about. Not humanitarian visas.

Just a plain old skilled migration program.

You know.

The one our entire country was built with.

Do you think the 70,000 people that migrate to NSW every year have open jobs waiting for them?
Of course it's not fruitful for you, because you can't push your pathetic agenda on me. So you attack me instead.

Yes, 70,000 people who migrate to Sydney have jobs waiting for them, with someone holding up a placard with their name on it. :roll:

Christ how simple are people in this state?
We have the highest unemployment rate in the country, and it's rising, and it will rise even further by the end of the year. Adding more people to this state without creating jobs would be catastrophic.

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Re: News & Discussion: The 30 Year Plan for Greater Adelaide

#126 Post by rev » Wed May 31, 2017 9:13 am

Llessur2002 wrote:
rev wrote:bringing more people(people with no skills or education and little to no English)
Not that I agree with the above description of having no skills or education by any means, but are you referring to immigrants who arrive as refugees as opposed migrants who arrive under skilled/business visa pathways?

When correctly managed, the skilled visa programs should bring in skilled workers that we simply do not have enough of - thus essential to help our economy grow. We can't just magic up, for example, electrical engineers overnight if we need them but we can bring them in via the appropriate visa in a much shorter time than it would take to pour government money into attracting students to electrical engineering degrees and then waiting another 3 to 4 years for them to graduate.
Everyone that arrives in this country is not skilled, or educated, and certainly not everyone can speak/write/read English.
That's what I'm getting at. I'm not saying everyone fits into that description. I'm not saying the opposite either.

What would we be bringing skilled workers to though? What jobs? We have the highest unemployment and it's going to go up significantly when the car industry shuts its doors for good by the end of this year. So we will have thousands more locals unemployed and looking for work.
So what are we going to be bringing skilled migrant workers to?
We should be first looking to put our own people into work, in new industries, or supporting and expanding existing industries, and then be worrying about skilled migrants.

Bringing in more people, regardless of where they are from, regardless of if they can speak/write/read the language, regardless of if they have an education or not, when unemployment is significantly high, and going to rise higher, is just bad policy. Really bad policy.

Take a look at how many jobs are advertised and how many new jobs are advertised in NSW or Victoria, and then look at South Australia. There's a very very significant difference there. So to the guy who was talking about 70,000 migrants to NSW, you might want to compare apples with apples next time.

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Re: News & Discussion: The 30 Year Plan for Greater Adelaide

#127 Post by rev » Wed May 31, 2017 9:23 am

Nathan wrote:Why the generalisation that migrants are unskilled, uneducated, and speak little English?
I know quite a few people from the Indian sub-continent and there abouts.
Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Sri Lankans, Afghans..quite a few of them have migrated here, studied and got their degrees.
Not one of them has a job in the field they've studied. 9/10 of them have really poor English language skills. But when you're parents are paying the University fees up front, that doesn't matter..all that does is $$$$.
Two of them, one Pakistani one Indian, have very good English skills, all be it with an accent of course. But they studied in an English college back home when they were kids. The majority don't.
Several of them have left and gone to Melbourne and Sydney, where the jobs are.
The rest are here, working in McDonalds(no kidding), driving taxis, driving buses, working as security guards, and other basic jobs.
But they studied and got degrees right? But there's no jobs in this state.
Great, we've got more diversity now. But hey, no decent jobs for you either, so either get a crappy job as a casual paying crap wages below award rates because the corporation you work for has had an unfair EBA passed(and they all virtually have), or join the unemployment lines at Centre Link.

So what's wrong with wanting government to worry about our own people first, wanting them to create employment opportunities for South Australians first and foremost, and then worry about migrant quotas?

The state government can come up with a 100 year plan for Adelaide if they want. But it's all meaningless bullshit unless there is a thriving economy with jobs.
The job market shouldn't look the way it does, it should be employers crying out and desperate for workers, not the other way around. We don't have a healthy economic situation in this state.

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Re: News & Discussion: The 30 Year Plan for Greater Adelaide

#128 Post by Llessur2002 » Wed May 31, 2017 9:38 am

rev wrote:Bringing in more people, regardless of where they are from, regardless of if they can speak/write/read the language, regardless of if they have an education or not, when unemployment is significantly high, and going to rise higher, is just bad policy. Really bad policy.
I can see where this thread is heading and it's likely to get messy...

However, I can't disagree with the above, presuming it is written in the context of our skilled migration programs - but then these are the issues that those programs should be explicitly designed to address. In my opinion we simply cannot fill 100% of skilled positions in Australia at any given time with Australian workers. The migration programs need to identify these gaps in our workforce and also identify the best possible overseas candidates for these roles in terms of their educational and vocational backgrounds. The programs also need to be flexible so that we do not continue to offer skilled visas where the domestic workforce is sufficiently large to fill all available roles, including when an industry slumps or is in decline (e.g. mining). In addition we desperately need to address declining student numbers in STEM subjects, produce more home-grown engineers and scientists and also get much better at retraining our own workforce when economies transition from one industry to another (e.g. manufacturing in SA).

However, this doesn't happen overnight and we will always have shortages of skilled Australian workers in one field or another at any given time. Those shortages do, and will always, need to be filled with overseas candidates - whether temporarily or permanently. Otherwise industries grind to a halt. I can't imagine any Australian employer or business arguing with that.

Our obligations to take in genuine refugees are a completely different story, which probably don't belong on this thread. Either way, those numbers are absolutely minuscule compared to skilled migration (19,000 refugees per year for the entire country as opposed to 200,000 skilled migrants and their dependents, 180,000 working holiday backpackers, 300,000 international students etc - many of these 19,000 refugees are also highly skilled professionals who go on to contribute enormously to our economy, industries, healthcare system etc).

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Re: News & Discussion: The 30 Year Plan for Greater Adelaide

#129 Post by Norman » Wed May 31, 2017 10:07 am

Maybe those skilled workers can start their own business? Why does the government have to create or support all the jobs? That goes against the fundamentals of a capitalist system.

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Re: News & Discussion: The 30 Year Plan for Greater Adelaide

#130 Post by mshagg » Wed May 31, 2017 12:54 pm

Norman wrote:Maybe those skilled workers can start their own business? Why does the government have to create or support all the jobs? That goes against the fundamentals of a capitalist system.
Bingo. The skills, capital and family members that the 190,000 strong migration intake brings to this country each year have been a driving force of prosperity largely enjoyed by just two eastern seaboard cities in recent years. That a discussion about the migration program so often sees conversation immediately turn to indian taxi drivers and african gangs is telling.

As for rev's mates from the sub continent, I do hope the correlation between their university fees and the wholesale redevelopment of the western end of north terrace is not lost in translation. How many thousands of jobs and hundreds of millions of dollars is this sector worth to our state now? Over a billion last time I heard. Handy millions being dropped in the construction industry right now as well. Please pass on my thanks for choosing to study here.

The narrative that the future prosperity of our state hinges on a small number of large employers which exist to facilitate glorified work for the dole programs belongs back in the 90s.

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Re: News & Discussion: The 30 Year Plan for Greater Adelaide

#131 Post by rev » Wed May 31, 2017 5:14 pm

Llessur2002 wrote:
rev wrote:Bringing in more people, regardless of where they are from, regardless of if they can speak/write/read the language, regardless of if they have an education or not, when unemployment is significantly high, and going to rise higher, is just bad policy. Really bad policy.
I can see where this thread is heading and it's likely to get messy...

However, I can't disagree with the above, presuming it is written in the context of our skilled migration programs - but then these are the issues that those programs should be explicitly designed to address. In my opinion we simply cannot fill 100% of skilled positions in Australia at any given time with Australian workers. The migration programs need to identify these gaps in our workforce and also identify the best possible overseas candidates for these roles in terms of their educational and vocational backgrounds. The programs also need to be flexible so that we do not continue to offer skilled visas where the domestic workforce is sufficiently large to fill all available roles, including when an industry slumps or is in decline (e.g. mining). In addition we desperately need to address declining student numbers in STEM subjects, produce more home-grown engineers and scientists and also get much better at retraining our own workforce when economies transition from one industry to another (e.g. manufacturing in SA).

However, this doesn't happen overnight and we will always have shortages of skilled Australian workers in one field or another at any given time. Those shortages do, and will always, need to be filled with overseas candidates - whether temporarily or permanently. Otherwise industries grind to a halt. I can't imagine any Australian employer or business arguing with that.

Our obligations to take in genuine refugees are a completely different story, which probably don't belong on this thread. Either way, those numbers are absolutely minuscule compared to skilled migration (19,000 refugees per year for the entire country as opposed to 200,000 skilled migrants and their dependents, 180,000 working holiday backpackers, 300,000 international students etc - many of these 19,000 refugees are also highly skilled professionals who go on to contribute enormously to our economy, industries, healthcare system etc).
Nah, it's headed in a certain direction, but it's not the one you're thinking.

My point isn't that we should cut migration or close the door on anyone else. Skilled or unskilled(although I think genuine refugees should take precedence over everyone else trying to come here).
My point is what's the point of growing the population, when there's no damn jobs for the people already here? What are those people going to do exactly? Start a business? LMFAO, yeh ok. Everyone coming to this country is a potential businessman.
So, if it's soo damn easy to start a business and employ people, like others in this thread think, why isn't the nearly 8% of the South Australian population that is officially unemployed(the real figures of people unemployed or under employed are much much higher), starting a business?
In fact, half of those unemployed can start a business, the other half can work for them.
It's so simple guys. All we have to do is get everyone unemployed to go down to the Magical Start Your Own Business Shop, and they can pick a business to take home.

In fact I'm quitting my job tomorrow and going down to the Magical Start Your Own Business Shop to get me my own business to take home.
And I'll stop posting on this matter in this thread, since this is the 30 year plan for Greater Adelaide thread, not the population thread. Plus I'll be far far too busy running my business from the magical business shop.

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Re: News & Discussion: The 30 Year Plan for Greater Adelaide

#132 Post by claybro » Wed May 31, 2017 5:51 pm

rev wrote:My point is what's the point of growing the population, when there's no damn jobs for the people already here? What are those people going to do exactly? Start a business? LMFAO, yeh ok. Everyone coming to this country is a potential businessman.
That is precisely what a huge percentage of the migrants are doing. It is generally not possible to immigrate to Australia, unless you have the means to support yourself. I spoke recently to an Asian fellow, working on his shop fitout for a new café near home. He was spending a fortune converting a vacant old shopfront into a new café. Yes, there are already too many cafes probably in the strip near my home, but he doesn't care if the café is not packed every night, he gets to live and work in Australia. sure his teenage kids will be working in the café,-so no jobs for low skilled Aussies in his café, however, the Aussies are fabricating his counters, kitchen gear, new glazing. He and his family will join thousands of other Asian building homes in the suburbs, or buying apartments nearby. They will buy vehicles, pay tax, purchase supplies for the shop, educate their kids.
The question is, is economic development via constant increasing of the population sustainable? Probably not. It is masking some pretty big problems underlying in the Australian economy.

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Re: News & Discussion: The 30 Year Plan for Greater Adelaide

#133 Post by Norman » Wed May 31, 2017 7:20 pm

While we're on population, rev, did you know that every year more than 11,000 people leave NSW for other states? And in WA more than 7000 people are leaving the state every year. Sure, it's not as high as SA on a per-capita basis (SA loses 6000 per year), but it is still significant.

For the record, 2700 people leave the NT and 126 left the ACT. The only states with positive interstate migration are Victoria, Queensland and Tasmania (with 42 people).



On the business fron, you said "why aren't all the unemployed South Australians creating a business?" Bingo! Why are they not? What do other states and countries do different? Maybe we should focus more on that than we already have.

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Re: News & Discussion: The 30 Year Plan for Greater Adelaide

#134 Post by rev » Wed May 31, 2017 8:42 pm

claybro wrote:
rev wrote:My point is what's the point of growing the population, when there's no damn jobs for the people already here? What are those people going to do exactly? Start a business? LMFAO, yeh ok. Everyone coming to this country is a potential businessman.
That is precisely what a huge percentage of the migrants are doing. It is generally not possible to immigrate to Australia, unless you have the means to support yourself. I spoke recently to an Asian fellow, working on his shop fitout for a new café near home. He was spending a fortune converting a vacant old shopfront into a new café. Yes, there are already too many cafes probably in the strip near my home, but he doesn't care if the café is not packed every night, he gets to live and work in Australia. sure his teenage kids will be working in the café,-so no jobs for low skilled Aussies in his café, however, the Aussies are fabricating his counters, kitchen gear, new glazing. He and his family will join thousands of other Asian building homes in the suburbs, or buying apartments nearby. They will buy vehicles, pay tax, purchase supplies for the shop, educate their kids.
The question is, is economic development via constant increasing of the population sustainable? Probably not. It is masking some pretty big problems underlying in the Australian economy.
A huge percentage? Really, so what's the percentage then?
What a load of crap.
You mention one person, and use it as an example to say basically that most are starting their own cafes(or other businesses). Also implying that they are all Asians.
Where's the generalization police? You missed one..

You then go on to say that he wont be employing locals. So why the heck did you even mention some random migrant starting his own café? What's it got to do with what I'm arguing about, or for, and that is that we should be creating new jobs/industries(or supporting existing industries to expand), to create jobs for locals, in South Australia(who gives a shit about Western Australia and it's burst mining bubbles) ???

I don't understand why some of you are unable to comprehend the simple argument that governments should be trying to improve the economy, create new jobs, new industries/support existing industries to expand, first and foremost for PEOPLE ALREADY LIVING IN THIS COUNTRY!!

There's no prosperity in this state, but a guy whose moved interstate is going to tell us we should have more migration to SA. Because we can support more people. We still have areas where there's no sewerage connection to homes..
This state struggles with what it has right now, on a variety of fronts not just jobs.

Fix the economy, create prosperity and economic opportunity, and people will come here without the need for the federal government to allocate migrants to us as part of a quota.

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Re: News & Discussion: The 30 Year Plan for Greater Adelaide

#135 Post by claybro » Wed May 31, 2017 9:23 pm

Rev, I spoke to one business owner, who happened to be Asian, out of general curiosity, because in my local area, in a poor economic climate there are literally dozens of new cafes, restaurants and small bars opening. All operated/ owned as it happens by Asians... mainly Vietnamese and Chinese. No these restaurants do not employ Australians, but they do build houses, furnish them, buy fuel, supplies etc. this all creates employment for all Aussies. No I am not the bureau of statistics, but I do not observe genuine migrants sitting around doing nothing. As for my reasons for changing states, well they are my own. But I still have property in Adelaide, family in Adelaide , and visit regularly, so sorry if it offends you for me to comment as an expat, but perhaps from a fresh perspective , the blinkers come off and the good and bad points of s place come into perspective. You should try it sometime.

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