Light Rail Visions

Ideas and concepts of what Adelaide can be.
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monotonehell
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Re: Light Rail Visions

#46 Post by monotonehell » Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:40 am

Trains definitely have a purpose. They are great at moving LOADS of people from one point to another. So they work really well in high density corridors or from one major population centre to another. But as most of Adelaide is very low density suburban sprawl, and buses can fan out to provide a door to door service, they are a much better at attracting patronage. After all the name of the game isn't just how many potential passengers you can shift, it's more about how much patronage you can attract.

Because more buses on the roads can lead to congestion, we need busways to give the PT the edge. Again to attract patronage away from cars and onto PT by providing a better and faster door to door service. Many PT studies have concluded that one of the things that discourages PT use is the need for a transfer. A bus system can run direct routes without transfers when patronage is high (during rush periods), and has the flexibility to concentrate feeder services into a longer run when patronage is low (to save money).

Recent cost accounting measures an Adelaide passenger trip at $7 for a bus and 12.90 for a train. Remembering that most train trips involve a feeder bus trip, that's $7 or 14 for a bus (peak door to door or fed) compared to $12.90 to 19.90 for a train (station to station or bus fed).
frank1 wrote:True, but the O-Bahn isn't flawless either. The teatree plaza bound buses i.e 540's terminate at TTP and also in the city. So they act as a sort of train anyway. If you don't live near the O-Bahn, you need to catch a bus that drops you off at the interchange. You end up waiting for one of these 540's anyway, so there really isn't much difference. A train could easily act in the same manner as one of these 540 buses.
You're comparing a train which has no choice whether to provide a door to door service to a busway where a choice in scheduling can be made. In off peak periods a fed shuttle mode makes sense, otherwise you can either run a lot of near empty buses all the way into the CBD or you can cut services all together. The former leads to higher costs the later leads to less patronage.
Will409 wrote:In addition, if you want to increase carrying capacity, you need to pile on extra buses which means extra bus drivers. If you had a heavy rail service, you just need to add an extra railcar. As for transfers, as long as the transfer times are reasonable (ie less then 10 minutes) and the services run close to time, I don't have a problem with them and nor to most other people (or atleast people I know, I obviously cannot speak for the entire population).
If you have the extra patronage an extra driver isn't a large cost. Also would all the patronage be coming from the same place? I doubt that. The only reason you have the need for extra capacity on a rail route is because buses are feeding the extra passengers to it, and transferring onto it. If it's busy enough why not run door to door services? I've read a few studies that have concluded that transfers frustrate passengers, that plus 10 minutes more travel time starts to make a car look attractive. Again if the potential patronage is there we need to attract it away from cars by providing a more convenient alternative. The times when transfers become unreliable is during peak periods where potential hold ups are more common, and the potential for more patronage exists.
Will409 wrote:What I was meaning was, if the capacity of say 2 railcars was reached on a certain run, it is possible via some re rostering of rollingstock to add an extra railcar to that same train making a 3 car set. Only if you wanted to increase the service frequency would you need an extra driver.
Again all that extra patronage isn't coming from one place. It's being fed into the stations from buses.
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Re: Light Rail Visions

#47 Post by jk1237 » Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:22 pm

what some people are saying is that the O'bahn promoted itself as normal street buses coming from the outer suburbs that could then drive straight onto the track into city, without the need for interchanging. Well yes the o'bahn started like this, but now its not. Outside of peakhour, it seems about 70% of all buses coming from the NE suburbs will terminate at Modbury or Paradise, where you transfer onto another bus into town, or from town.
I would rather change onto a fast, modern, electric, quiet, a/c, speaker announcement equipped suburban train, that gets you into the heart of the city, than an old, noisy, cramped, diesel bus that ends near the city which then fights with cars for another 15+ mins to get to Grenfell St. An o'bahn would be a good idea for a short corridor, but for a long corrdior such as Modbury i reckon a train is much better and it seems every other city in the world thinks that. On a night, Sat or Sun, the bus may win out on operating costs, but during peak hour and weekdays, i would think 1 6-car train every 10/15 mins is better than 20 express buses every minute

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Re: Light Rail Visions

#48 Post by AtD » Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:28 pm

Coming from the outer centres like Salisbury, or even Mawson Lakes, trains area always going to beat buses in terms of speed, even if there were a dedicated bus corridor. You're not going to be able to replicate the 5.10pm express to Noarlunga Centre, a four car sardine packed set, with a bus service.

A bus is always going to beat a train if you live in sprawl. The problem is that sprawl tends itself to low frequency service due to the lack of 'customer base' in the catchment of even a bus. Population density lends itself to fast, efficient and frequent PT services (of any mode), and that's something we should be encouraging around our existing PT corridors. This is the reason the O-Bahn has feeder services, because the population density isn't sufficient to keep buses running all day. I remember from growing up in the Modbury area, buses like 505 would be packed out of the city but nearly empty after TTP, even during peak hour where all feeder services go though.

The systems complement each other, not compete against each other.

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Re: Light Rail Visions

#49 Post by AG » Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:32 pm

Even with the O'Bahn there are always going to be services which require interchanging with other services. It's good that there are a lot of buses passing along the O'Bahn, but that high frequency is only really beneficial for those who live near those major interchanges along the corridor (which is not many people as the interchanges are mostly located within the Linear Park). Most people who use O'Bahn routes either take it from a suburban street and swap to another O'Bahn route if it terminates at one of the interchanges or take it all the way into the city (and beyond in some cases). Most of those suburban streets served by the O'Bahn still don't have frequent services.

I don't believe that a train along the current corridor only as far as Tea Tree Plaza would be much better than the existing O'Bahn services we currently have. However, if there was an extension to Golden Grove with stops located about 1km apart between Tea Tree Plaza and Golden Grove, I would say it would be quite beneficial, particularly for those who would normally use the F40 and M44 routes.

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Re: Light Rail Visions

#50 Post by frank1 » Sun Feb 24, 2008 3:30 pm

Extending a line past TTP is possible without too much hassle. The government bought up land years ago for future corridor extensions, which could easily accommodate light rail.

It is true that buses work better in low density areas, but the point I'm making is to plan for light rail along this O-Bahn corridor for the future. Growth into medium/high density areas along this corridor could occur in the future and you must plan for this.

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Re: Light Rail Visions

#51 Post by Shuz » Mon May 19, 2008 2:29 pm

I modified my tram vision for the Mitcham route.
The initial line now has 9 stops, instead of 10, and at its terminus now stops in High Street (adjacent Edinburgh Hotel) rather than in Welbourne Street.
A secondary line would run down Duthy Street and beyond, terminating at Mitcham Square to service Malvern, Unley, Kingswood & Parkside residents.

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Re: Light Rail Visions

#52 Post by monotonehell » Mon May 19, 2008 2:53 pm

Shuz you might want to take another look at both your routes. The King William Road root hits a snag when you find the end of King William Road, cutting across Hyde Park Park will have you shot by the local tree mafia and after that Grove street is only a neighbour hood residential road (too narrow). On the other root you hit a problem on Harrow Tce Kingswood, where you're going directly through the grounds (and a building) of Mitcham Primary school. Perhaps consider Cross and Belair Road terminating at Micham Station on the rail line and then back up Belair Road onto Unley Road and Northgate Road to complete the loop up King William Road back to the city? Or something... I don't know that area very well.

Also - do you live on High Street :lol:
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Re: Light Rail Visions

#53 Post by cleverick » Wed May 28, 2008 10:19 pm

I believe that trams are good for dense commercial centres, but terrible for commuting. Witness the Glenelg tram- and that has a right-of-way.
While I fully endorse building improving our tram and train systems, I think that right-of-way should be the way to go, except for short sections like the City Mile or Jetty Rd. (Unley Rd, Henley Beach Rd etc.)
If your intent is to move large numbers of people to and from their place of work, only trains have the capacity to cope with a rush hour. (Competent trains, not Adelaide's once-every-1/2-hour trains)

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Re: Light Rail Visions

#54 Post by Shuz » Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:42 pm

And another. This is one of the many cross-town/city loop tramlines that would criss-cross the square mile (under my vision) - the focus is primarily on Grenfell/Currie and North Terrace - where the main hub of CBD activity lies. What you'll also notice is the incorporation of some of my other visions, eg: Centrepoint Tower on Hindmarsh/Grenfell/Pirie Frome block and the Rundle/Hindley/Frome/Clarendon Malls and other tidbits here and there.

I'm hoping the majority of you are geographically literate. If not, please refer to your street directories. :D


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Re: Light Rail Visions

#55 Post by Shuz » Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:17 pm

And another two :D

This time, the West Lakes and Grange light rail routes. (I'm hoping State Budget details tomorrow should mimick it in some form)

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Grange
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Re: Light Rail Visions

#56 Post by cleverick » Sat Jun 07, 2008 4:32 pm

Shuz,
as far as the inner-city tram lines go, wouldn't it be better to utilise the terraces? They are typically wide (perhaps rather than the southern end of East Tce, you could justify continuing down Hutt St) and have wonderful views. Melbourne's tram system makes heavy use of their four 'terraces', although they are largely lacking of the aesthetic advantages of Adelaide's.
As for further routes within the city, I don't see why tram lines should not eventually be in every second (the wider) street in Adelaide. With appropriate turning facilities and stops, routes could then be adjusted to best suit current requirements, just as buses do on roads.

And further to my point about the relative benefits of trams and trains, I would like to see a tram from King William Rd-Sir Edwin Smith Ave-Melbourne St-Walkerville Tce.

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Re: Light Rail Visions

#57 Post by AG » Sat Jun 07, 2008 5:51 pm

cleverick wrote:Shuz,
And further to my point about the relative benefits of trams and trains, I would like to see a tram from King William Rd-Sir Edwin Smith Ave-Melbourne St-Walkerville Tce.
It'd be difficult to justify why a tram service only running to Walkerville Terrace would be feasible, considering there's already lots of buses running to different destinations beyond Walkerville Terrace heading away from the city, and via several different roads heading into the city. Many of those buses are quite empty during the middle of the day.

At the moment, Walkerville Terrace is served by the current routes:

207 (departs King William Street) - City to Paradise Interchange via Melbourne Street, Walkerville Terrace, Galway Avenue, Folland Avenue and Sir Ross Smith Boulevarde
208 (departs King William Street) - City to Paradise Interchange via Melbourne Street, Walkerville Terrace, Galway Avenue, Navigator Drive and Sir Ross Smith Boulevarde
209 (departs King William Street) - City to Tea Tree Plaza via Melbourne Street, Walkerville Terrace, Galway Avenue, Bridge Road, Nelson Road and Milne Road
281 (departs Pulteney Street) - City to Paradise Interchange via Hackney Road, Walkerville Terrace and McLachlan Road.
283 (departs Pulteney Street) - City to Klemzig via Hackney Road, Walkerville Terrace and McLachlan Road.

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Re: Light Rail Visions

#58 Post by cleverick » Sun Jun 08, 2008 5:35 pm

OK, but like the tram to the Entertainment Centre, it doesn't all have to be built at once. I would just love to see a Jetty Rd-style tram along O'Connell and Melbourne Streets (And maybe Tynte to connect to the Squ up that way, but whatever...)

Can you see where I'm going with this? Trams are not good for commuting, but local errand-running and bringing life to commercial streets.

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Re: Light Rail Visions

#59 Post by Omicron » Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:02 am

cleverick wrote:OK, but like the tram to the Entertainment Centre, it doesn't all have to be built at once. I would just love to see a Jetty Rd-style tram along O'Connell and Melbourne Streets (And maybe Tynte to connect to the Squ up that way, but whatever...)

Can you see where I'm going with this? Trams are not good for commuting, but local errand-running and bringing life to commercial streets.
With adequate coverage to suburban areas, trams are useful for suburb-to-suburb transport, but never underestimate their ability to move commuters to the CBD in a timely, efficient manner. Of course, my answer is largely dependent upon living closer to Glenelg rather than the CBD and therefore less likely to encounter full inbound trams, but their frequencies and ease of access to the surrounding areas are invaluable in enhancing public transport patronage. I can say for sure that a bus to the CBD from my house is slower in peak hours than the tram, even allowing for a thirteen-minute walk (yes, on a boring day, I have timed this :wink: ) to the tramline.

It would indeed be delightful to see trams heading through North Adelaide, so we can only hope for the success of the Port Adelaide extension so as to further the cause of future extensions.

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Re: Light Rail Visions

#60 Post by Shuz » Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:03 pm

I am working on the mothership of all light rail visions ever compiled for Adelaide. I am still working on the city and North Adelaide area, and haven't even begun with suburban services. Basically it will be a compliation of all the tibits posted previously, plus far more.

I am getting right down to details, stops, routes, services, interchanges, etc.

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