CBD Ideas

[fkj]

I've been working on this for part of a school project, and thought feedback would be good.
I know that things like this have most definatley been posted here before, but I thought I would post my spin on the basis of improving the CBD's public transport 'flow' and usability.
This is still definatley a work in progress, but yeah, go for it.


CBD Plan on Flikr

In white is my take on a underground rail link.
My choice of stop locations would be under North Terrace, next to the railway station, potentially even connected to the main station via something along the lines of the underpass that allready travels through under there.
Next stop would be further up North Terrace, immediatley before the Frome Rd curve. I wasnt entirely sure whether or not this stop would be neccasary, as it is quite close to the previous one, but i think it would be nice to have, and certainly encourage more people to catch trains to Uni.
After this I would have a stop more or less directly underneath Harris Scarfe, with entrance points from Rundle Mall, and Grenfell Street.
Last CBD Station for now would be in Victoria Square, with provisions for a station to be opened around Whitmore Square when demand requires it.
After this, trains would reconnect to the main line at a new Keswick Station, 200m South of where it currently lies.
For this through route I would encourage trains to run from Outer Harbor to Belair, and Gawler to Noarlunga and Grange to an extended Tonsley Line to FMC

Tram runs along former corridor in Plympton, along James Cogdon Road then SDB Drive, then through town via Grote/Wakefield, before turning left on Hutt, before leaving the city to Norwood via Bartels Road, Flinders St and The Parade to terminus near Port Rush Road.

[Isiskii]

People can walk.

[Nathan]

Underground stops are usually wider than a normal road too. You don't need to run it directly under North Tce, and then loop it back to go along the Mall. You'd just have it run down the middle of the block, and have exits either side out to North Tce, or the Mall.

[fkj]

People can walk.

Sure they CAN walk, but will they? In many cases, they wont. People are more likely to take the option that delivers them the closest to their destination and for most people that option is currently their car.

Underground stops are usually wider than a normal road too. You don't need to run it directly under North Tce, and then loop it back to go along the Mall. You'd just have it run down the middle of the block, and have exits either side out to North Tce, or the Mall.

That was an aspect I was unsure of, was which stop to use, so I threw them both in, with the plan of trimming one of them down.
The North Terrace one would probably attract the most patronage, so I think I'll stick with that. It's all a work in progress.

What of the tramline, any feedback?

[Aidan]

I've been working on this for part of a school project, and thought feedback would be good.
I know that things like this have most definatley been posted here before, but I thought I would post my spin on the basis of improving the CBD's public transport 'flow' and usability.
This is still definatley a work in progress, but yeah, go for it.


CBD Plan on Flikr

In white is my take on a underground rail link.

OK. Since your plan appears to be based on mine, I'll only comment on the differences. Therefore don't be too disappointed if my criticism seems to be overly negative - there is a lot of stuff we agree on.

My choice of stop locations would be under North Terrace, next to the railway station, potentially even connected to the main station via something along the lines of the underpass that allready travels through under there.

Have you given any thought to where the other end of the station should be?

Next stop would be further up North Terrace, immediatley before the Frome Rd curve. I wasnt entirely sure whether or not this stop would be neccasary, as it is quite close to the previous one, but i think it would be nice to have, and certainly encourage more people to catch trains to Uni.

Your curve radius is very tight. Historically the SAR set a minimum curve radius of a furlong (about 200m) and that's still as tight as curves get on our railways. If there were an overwhelming need then tighter curves would be possible, but your curves of less than half that radius would not be possible with rollingstock anything like what we have now. And even with specially designed trains, it would be slow. The extra time taken by the trains and all the passengers on them would not make up for the reduced amount of waking for those passengers getting off at that station.

After this I would have a stop more or less directly underneath Harris Scarfe, with entrance points from Rundle Mall, and Grenfell Street.

The straight section that's on would limit the length of your platforms. Though it wouldn't be a problem for the existing trains, it would limit future options.

Last CBD Station for now would be in Victoria Square, with provisions for a station to be opened around Hindmarsh Square when demand requires it.

ITYM Whitmore Square!

Waiting for demand to require it isn't as good a strategy as it may appear, as lack of good transport is holding the area back. And without a station, growth is likely to be more car oriented than it would otherwise be.

My version has the Victoria Square station under Central Market. I notice you've chosen a different alignment under Victoria Square, presumably to get the station more central. But this leaves the southern part of the City even further from any station. Also, I notice you've got the railway running beneath the 8 storey car park in Coglin Street. Though I've not investigated it, most buildings that tall, especially newer ones, have pile foundations, which makes them difficult to tunnel under.

After this, trains would reconnect to the main line at a new Keswick Station, 200m South of where it currently lies.

I think moving the station 200m S is a big mistake. The existing station could easily be linked with Keswick Terminal, but one 200m S couldn't. Also, there is potential for further extending the tunnel to Edwardstown / Woodlands Park. Keswick Platforms on that line could be linked with the existing station more easily than with one 200m S.

For this through route I would encourage trains to run from Outer Harbor to Belair, and Gawler to Noarlunga and Grange to an extended Tonsley Line to FMC

Why just FMC?

EDIT: Completley forgot to mention the extra tramline in there.
Tram runs along former corridor in Plympton, along James Cogdon Road then SDB Drive, then through town via Grote/Wakefield, before turning left on Hutt, before leaving the city to Norwood via Bartels Road,

What would you do about the conflict with racing cars?

I don't think the former railway corridor is that good a route for trams, but Grote Street is still a good way into the City, partly because it's the shortest route from the airport. However I regard Angas Street as a better route than Wakefield Street because that would give much better interchange in Victoria Square. Linking it to the eastern suburbs would require tunnelling, but this would be faster and avoid any conflicts with the racing circuit even when the roads are closed.

Flinders St and The Parade to terminus near Port Rush Road.

Why terminate there?

And if Norwood's the ultimate destination, another option is to extend the railway there. Trains via Mile End could have cross platform interchange with the Cross City trains at Adelaide station before running to Adelaide University then Norwood.

[monotonehell]

What would you do about the conflict with racing cars?

And if Norwood's the ultimate destination, another option is to extend the railway there. Trains via Mile End could have cross platform interchange with the Cross City trains at Adelaide station before running to Adelaide University then Norwood.

Heavy rail to an inner suburb? Wrong mode!

[crawf]

^^??

[fkj]

My choice of stop locations would be under North Terrace, next to the railway station, potentially even connected to the main station via something along the lines of the underpass that allready travels through under there.

Have you given any thought to where the other end of the station should be?

I was thinking that the other end of the station would be around the convention centre.

Next stop would be further up North Terrace, immediatley before the Frome Rd curve. I wasnt entirely sure whether or not this stop would be neccasary, as it is quite close to the previous one, but i think it would be nice to have, and certainly encourage more people to catch trains to Uni.

Your curve radius is very tight. Historically the SAR set a minimum curve radius of a furlong (about 200m) and that's still as tight as curves get on our railways. If there were an overwhelming need then tighter curves would be possible, but your curves of less than half that radius would not be possible with rollingstock anything like what we have now. And even with specially designed trains, it would be slow. The extra time taken by the trains and all the passengers on them would not make up for the reduced amount of waking for those passengers getting off at that station.

I was unsure about that curve, so I guess Ill have to look back over that now.

After this I would have a stop more or less directly underneath Harris Scarfe, with entrance points from Rundle Mall, and Grenfell Street.

The straight section that's on would limit the length of your platforms. Though it wouldn't be a problem for the existing trains, it would limit future options.

Last CBD Station for now would be in Victoria Square, with provisions for a station to be opened around Hindmarsh Square when demand requires it.

ITYM Whitmore Square!

Waiting for demand to require it isn't as good a strategy as it may appear, as lack of good transport is holding the area back. And without a station, growth is likely to be more car oriented than it would otherwise be.

My version has the Victoria Square station under Central Market. I notice you've chosen a different alignment under Victoria Square, presumably to get the station more central. But this leaves the southern part of the City even further from any station. Also, I notice you've got the railway running beneath the 8 storey car park in Coglin Street. Though I've not investigated it, most buildings that tall, especially newer ones, have pile foundations, which makes them difficult to tunnel under.

WHOOPS! Whitmore, my mind was elsewhere.
I thought it would be better just to leave the station central under Vic Square, simply so it can be easier to make an interchange between the trams. I personally didnt like how yours barely went into vic square, but I can see where you're coming from, as the southern part of the city is a bit left in the dark on mine.
That carpark building was meant to be just avoided, my first map didnt have it going under that, must've overlooked it when doing this one.

After this, trains would reconnect to the main line at a new Keswick Station, 200m South of where it currently lies.

I think moving the station 200m S is a big mistake. The existing station could easily be linked with Keswick Terminal, but one 200m S couldn't. Also, there is potential for further extending the tunnel to Edwardstown / Woodlands Park. Keswick Platforms on that line could be linked with the existing station more easily than with one 200m S.

I cant see a problem with moving it 200m South, that would have it just on the other side of the road bridge.

For this through route I would encourage trains to run from Outer Harbor to Belair, and Gawler to Noarlunga and Grange to an extended Tonsley Line to FMC

Why just FMC?

To FMC for now, because it seems like that is all that we would be getting any time in the forseeable future, and who says we can't extend it further at a later stage.

EDIT: Completley forgot to mention the extra tramline in there.
Tram runs along former corridor in Plympton, along James Cogdon Road then SDB Drive, then through town via Grote/Wakefield, before turning left on Hutt, before leaving the city to Norwood via Bartels Road,

What would you do about the conflict with racing cars?

I don't think the former railway corridor is that good a route for trams, but Grote Street is still a good way into the City, partly because it's the shortest route from the airport. However I regard Angas Street as a better route than Wakefield Street because that would give much better interchange in Victoria Square. Linking it to the eastern suburbs would require tunnelling, but this would be faster and avoid any conflicts with the racing circuit even when the roads are closed.

send them to Victoria.
But no seriously, I would think running along side bartells rd, just in the parklands would work well, and then we could implement a station along the side, perfectly suited to serve the Clipsal 500.


I looked at angas street, because of the interchange factor, but where is angas gonna take you? nowhere.....
If i wanted to have a better interchange, I would say run North at KWS, move Vic Sq. Station to other half, and then run it up Pirie Street instead.

Flinders St and The Parade to terminus near Port Rush Road.

Why terminate there?

why not?

And if Norwood's the ultimate destination, another option is to extend the railway there.

this

Heavy rail to an inner suburb? Wrong mode!

[Omicron]

^^??

Yes.

[Aidan]

My version has the Victoria Square station under Central Market. I notice you've chosen a different alignment under Victoria Square, presumably to get the station more central. But this leaves the southern part of the City even further from any station. Also, I notice you've got the railway running beneath the 8 storey car park in Coglin Street. Though I've not investigated it, most buildings that tall, especially newer ones, have pile foundations, which makes them difficult to tunnel under.

WHOOPS! Whitmore, my mind was elsewhere.
I thought it would be better just to leave the station central under Vic Square, simply so it can be easier to make an interchange between the trams. I personally didnt like how yours barely went into vic square, but I can see where you're coming from, as the southern part of the city is a bit left in the dark on mine.
That carpark building was meant to be just avoided, my first map didnt have it going under that, must've overlooked it when doing this one.

But there is no good reason for a more central Victoria Square station. My station location is almost as close to the tram stop as yours, but with a railway directly under the City, the proportion of train passengers transferring to trams is likely to be lower than at present. The really important thing is how near their destination it takes the passengers, and I regard good access to Central Market, Gouger Street and Chinatown to be more important. And as my stations would be very long (to make future upgrading easier, my Gawler Place station would be sufficient for the area north of Victoria Square.

After this, trains would reconnect to the main line at a new Keswick Station, 200m South of where it currently lies.

I think moving the station 200m S is a big mistake. The existing station could easily be linked with Keswick Terminal, but one 200m S couldn't. Also, there is potential for further extending the tunnel to Edwardstown / Woodlands Park. Keswick Platforms on that line could be linked with the existing station more easily than with one 200m S.

I cant see a problem with moving it 200m South, that would have it just on the other side of the road bridge.

The problem is it would be about 200m further from Keswick Termanal. It would be fairly easy to link Keswick Terminal with the existing station at Keswick so that people regard it as part of the same station. It would be much harder to link a station 200m south.

For this through route I would encourage trains to run from Outer Harbor to Belair, and Gawler to Noarlunga and Grange to an extended Tonsley Line to FMC

Why just FMC?

To FMC for now, because it seems like that is all that we would be getting any time in the forseeable future, and who says we can't extend it further at a later stage.

I see. The only problem is that FMC itself is not a good place to extend the line from.

EDIT: Completley forgot to mention the extra tramline in there.
Tram runs along former corridor in Plympton, along James Cogdon Road then SDB Drive, then through town via Grote/Wakefield, before turning left on Hutt, before leaving the city to Norwood via Bartels Road,

What would you do about the conflict with racing cars?

I don't think the former railway corridor is that good a route for trams, but Grote Street is still a good way into the City, partly because it's the shortest route from the airport. However I regard Angas Street as a better route than Wakefield Street because that would give much better interchange in Victoria Square. Linking it to the eastern suburbs would require tunnelling, but this would be faster and avoid any conflicts with the racing circuit even when the roads are closed.

send them to Victoria.

We want to win back some events from Victoria, not surrender even more of them to Victoria.

But no seriously, I would think running along side bartells rd, just in the parklands would work well, and then we could implement a station along the side, perfectly suited to serve the Clipsal 500.

Far from being perfect for the Clipsal, it would make things exceedingly difficult for the Clipsal 500 as it would discharge the passengers into what would otherwise be the paid area. So it would require a lot of extra fencing. And having the track there would limit options for grandstands. But most importantly, turning such a large strip of parklands into tramway is no longer considered environmentally acceptable.

I looked at angas street, because of the interchange factor, but where is angas gonna take you? nowhere.....

It takes you to the end of the street, just like any other street. But if you want to run to the eastern suburbs, a tunnel looks like the only practical solution. Turning parklands into tramway is not an acceptable option, and nor is using the roads through the parklands in most cases, though it might be OK for Hutt Road.

If i wanted to have a better interchange, I would say run North at KWS, move Vic Sq. Station to other half, and then run it up Pirie Street instead.

Victoria Square station's where it is because of its proximity to Central Market. That's not worth giving up for good interchange.

Why terminate there?

why not?

Because of the high proportion of passengers living beyond there.

And if Norwood's the ultimate destination, another option is to extend the railway there.

this

Heavy rail to an inner suburb? Wrong mode!

Not necessarily - inner suburbs are where many people would expect heavy rail subways to go. And unlike the trains to the outer suburbs, the trains we currently have to the inner suburbs are generally short. I don't see any big problem with extending the Brighton Line through the City and out the other side - do you?

[monotonehell]

Heavy rail to an inner suburb? Wrong mode!

Not necessarily - inner suburbs are where many people would expect heavy rail subways to go. And unlike the trains to the outer suburbs, the trains we currently have to the inner suburbs are generally short. I don't see any big problem with extending the Brighton Line through the City and out the other side - do you?

Heavy rail's running cost is more suited to long distance transfers of large numbers of passengers with infrequent services. As soon as you start adding frequency to heavy rail the costs stop it being as effective. So in a networked transport system there should be heavy rail connecting large centres with limited stops. Light rail servicing at street level, with frequency, many stops and short runs (less than 30minutes). And buses doing the less patronised connections, feeders, as well as sometimes replacing trains as night services where they are more efficient at servicing lower patronage instead of running mostly empty single cars.

There's also a second factor; penetration. Light rail can have on street running and get to where people want to go. Where as heavy rail carves suburbia in two. Unless you run everything underground it creates barriers (ever heard of the "wrong side of the tracks"?) Not something you'd want to try to force into the leafy suburbs.

[metro]

But most importantly, turning such a large strip of parklands into tramway is no longer considered environmentally acceptable.

cause we cant have trams destroying our environmentally acceptable roadways that are about 3 times as wide as a tram corridor and getting in the way of our very "environmentally friendly" supercar event

[Aidan]

But most importantly, turning such a large strip of parklands into tramway is no longer considered environmentally acceptable.

cause we cant have trams destroying our environmentally acceptable roadways that are about 3 times as wide as a tram corridor and getting in the way of our very "environmentally friendly" supercar event

Turning such a large strip of parklands into a road wouldn't be environmentally acceptable either. It was when the roads were built, but times have changed.

[iTouch]

Hold that thought guys, I have a better one.
Why not create a subway UNDER AND AROUND the parklands

Hold the applause till the end guys:


The black line represents the subway and the pink squares represent the stations it works out well connecting the Adelaide Railway station through Victoria Square and , as you can see, I also included Whitmore Square just to keep those people happy. It doesn't go anywhere but it does grant them bragging rights. Because it's underground, parkland space isn't been used too much either so it'll keep the trippy hippies happy aswell.

All fixed.


Oh by the way this is my little celebration of my 300th post!

[monotonehell]

uTouch(Yourself), I'm assuming that you're having a lend because those stops are no where near where people want to go...