Vision: CBD Underground Rail Loop

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monotonehell
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Re: Vision: CBD Underground Rail Loop

#16 Post by monotonehell » Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:06 am

PeFe wrote:I can't see the map...can anyone else?
I fixed it for ya Rev.
Exit on the right in the direction of travel.

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Re: Vision: CBD Underground Rail Loop

#17 Post by PeFe » Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:27 am

Well since we're talking "big picture" future transport corridors...here is my contribution.
BLUE LINE = HEAVY RAIL All Adelaide Metro trains use a north-south tunnel.
RED LINE = TRAM LINE This tram line extends from Tee Tree Plaza (along the former Obahn corridor) to the Airport/Henley Beach (2 separate lines) via a tunnel under Hackney Road to just north of the East Terrace/Grenfell intersection. The trams then travel west along the Grenfell/Currie transport way (car free between East Tce and Light Square)
And on the 2nd map ignore the colours....they are both trams.
The Grange and West Lakes trams terminate at the (newly undergrounded) Woodville Railway Station for frequent trains into the city.
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Re: Vision: CBD Underground Rail Loop

#18 Post by claybro » Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:09 pm

Only problem is that the proposed hospital station, and the King William station do not really service the Adelaide Oval. The Hospital station should probably closer to the existing station ie right next to the Morphett St bridge. I still think the line should go more toward Pultney Street in a large arc rather than directly under KWS which is already well connected to PT. Do like the idea of the East/West tramline using the Obahn, but I dont know if Henley Beach road is suited to trams. It is too narrow through Torrensville. But Grote St/ Sir Donald bradman might work ok, and generate some higher density housing along SDBD.

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Re: Vision: CBD Underground Rail Loop

#19 Post by PeFe » Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:21 am

Claybro wrote
Only problem is that the proposed hospital station, and the King William station do not really service the Adelaide Oval. The Hospital station should probably closer to the existing station ie right next to the Morphett St bridge. I still think the line should go more toward Pultney Street in a large arc rather than directly under KWS which is already well connected to PT. Do like the idea of the East/West tramline using the Obahn, but I dont know if Henley Beach road is suited to trams. It is too narrow through Torrensville. But Grote St/ Sir Donald bradman might work ok, and generate some higher density housing along SDBD.
The logic behind the station placement goes like this :
KWS - near Rundle Mall for shoppers, close to all the major CBD office blocks, close or on top of thousands of other public transport connections
RAH - under the new RAH,next to SAMHRI and UNI SA (all major generators of traffic) and of course would service the western CBD/western Hindley St.
CITY SOUTH - self explanatory, patronage would dramatically climb as new office blocks and appartments are built in the southern CBD
There is no designated train station for Adelaide Oval, it doesn't deserve one (would only generate significant crowds 30-40 days a year and is within easy walking distance to hundreds of other transport options)
I am also totally against a "loop"... why? see Sydney and Melbourne (the Sydney City Circle and Melbourne Loop add 10 minutes to train journeys..I know I live in Sydney and avoid going around the City Circle loop like the plague, it's a waste of time) and besides the Adelaide CBD is way too small, the stations would be too close together and the "curve" for the loop would make it even more expensive. I have been inspired by the Paris RER and the Berlin S-Bahn (neither have loops but rather north-south and east-west tunnels)
Not sure whether modern day Henley Beach Rd can cope with cars and trams...maybe a no-street parking rule on the narrowest section of the road, otherwise the tram can turn left at Light Square and head down Morphett into Grote and Don Bradman Drive as you suggested.

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Re: Vision: CBD Underground Rail Loop

#20 Post by claybro » Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:31 am

I have traveled on the Berlin S-Bahn frequently and it is not a straight through line but rather snakes its way though both East and West ends of the city via the new HBF ( main station) connecting major centres as Berlin is a multi centred city. Your line straight up KWS completely ignores the Eastern end of Adelaide CBD.And by the way, the area of the adelaide CBD is in total area no smaller then Sydney or Melbourne CBD.As for Adelaide oval not requiring a nearby station, I could not disagree more as this whole proposal is built around getting fans to use the trains. I do agree though a through train as per SBahn type via a tunnel rather than a loop is much more efficient. I believe new proposals in Melbourne have tunnels that go straight through rather than forcing all trains onto the loop, with the new lines only conecting to 1 or 2 major stations on the loop itself.

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Re: Vision: CBD Underground Rail Loop

#21 Post by Eurostar » Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:55 pm

I say forget about curving at the Parliament House and continue under North Adelaide under O'Connell Street, then turn slightly left at Prospect Road connecting up with Gawler Central Line at Ovingham Station. The Outer Harbor trains would turn left at the River Torrens, running on North side of the Torrens, connecting up with existing line at Torrens Junction

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Re: Vision: CBD Underground Rail Loop

#22 Post by PeFe » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:55 am

Claybro wrote
Your line straight up KWS completely ignores the Eastern end of Adelaide CBD.
But my new tram line doesn't..it would be free between East End and Light Square (for those unwilling or unable to walk)
the area of the adelaide CBD is in total area no smaller then Sydney or Melbourne CBD.
No, no and no.....I work in the Sydney CBD and my guess is that it is 5 times bigger than the Adealide CBD.
Comparing the two :
Adealide CBD - core stretches from North Tce to Victoria Square (600 metres?) and Light to Hindmarsh Squares (700 metres?) and the you have small pockets of office space along KWS South.
Sydney CBD - core stretches from Circular Quay to Central Station (1.5 kilometres?) and Elizabeth to Sussex/Kent Streets (400 metres?) and the you have significant office space in nearby Pyrmont,Darling Harbour,Ultimo,Redfern,Surry Hills,Darlinghurst and Kings Cross and of course North Sydney is just across the harbour (very much like a smaller Adelaide CBD)
As for Adelaide oval not requiring a nearby station, I could not disagree more as this whole proposal is built around getting fans to use the trains.
The whole proposal...???? The train line should service the highest activity centres within the CBD first and foremost, and that is not Adelaide Oval. By the way you do realise that significant large crowds attended SANFL football games at Adelaide Oval in the past (I think they got 65,000 to a grand final in the 1970's) and this was with minimal to zero car parking.....how did they get there...bog standard public transport of the day and it worked just fine ...no issues no hassle.

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Re: Vision: CBD Underground Rail Loop

#23 Post by claybro » Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:41 pm

PeFe, in 20-30 years time due to building height restrictions, Adelaides tallest towers will be well EAST of KWS. The CBD will stretch from North Terrace to South Terrace, and West to East.(technically it already does although most is under-developed) This is already happening. The core as you put it will shift focus from its current location to further East. If we are to avoid the inefficient loop style of Melbourne and Sydney CBD trains, then the through line will need to service the main areas of activity in the CBD. These areas need access to trains as trams are not really suitable for transferring peak hour crush commuters to trains.Coomuters need to be able to walk straight to a train. I only suggested Hindmarsh Sq as it serves both Rundle Mall, and the rapidly developing South East.A station under the South West corner of Vic Sq would serve the Western and Southern parts of the city.Tram loops would serve trips within the inner city for local residents and commuters from inner suburbs. As for grand finals in the 70's at Adelaide oval being well serviced by public transport, well you are right on that point because it was serviced by the current train station. Your plan is to move the train stations that would service Adelaide Oval some 1km further west and nearly the same distance further south, I would place the North Terrace underground station nearer the current station to service Hospital/Convention Centre Casino Festival Centre and Adelaide Oval, the last 3 generating much more traffic than the hopsital alone.

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Re: Vision: CBD Underground Rail Loop

#24 Post by Westside » Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:40 pm

PeFe wrote:By the way you do realise that significant large crowds attended SANFL football games at Adelaide Oval in the past (I think they got 65,000 to a grand final in the 1970's) and this was with minimal to zero car parking.....how did they get there...bog standard public transport of the day and it worked just fine ...no issues no hassle.
Not even close. SANFL grand finals for most of the 70s were played at Football Park. The figure you quote was from the 1976 Port/Sturt match @ Footy park. Adelaide Oval has never held more than just over 50k. Having said that, during the hey day of public transport usage in this state, scores of trams used to terminate right outside the Victor Richardson gates each match day. The closer to a destination public transport can get you, the more it is used. If you move the central railway station an extra 1km walk away from 50 thousand people (even if just for 30-40 days of the year), then you are pretty much turning away millions of public transport journeys each year. There's no reason the railway station can't stay where it is (roughly) and still be part of an underground network of some sort.

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Re: Vision: CBD Underground Rail Loop

#25 Post by Nathan » Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:22 pm

I'm sorry, are we actually discussing another train station closer to Adelaide Oval then the current Adelaide Railway Station, which will be less than 5 minutes away via the new pedestrian bridge? That just seems absurd to me.

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Re: Vision: CBD Underground Rail Loop

#26 Post by claybro » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:04 pm

Nathan wrote:I'm sorry, are we actually discussing another train station closer to Adelaide Oval then the current Adelaide Railway Station, which will be less than 5 minutes away via the new pedestrian bridge? That just seems absurd to me.
No Nathan, it was in response to PeFe proposal of an underground station at the RAH (new) site and the next CBD station on KWS south of Rundle Mall. I was mearly pointing out any new North Terrace underground station should be located close to the current station location to maximise use for ALL North terrace attractions including Adelaide oval. Shifting the station 1km to the West and under the new RAH whilst serving the hospital well, would not serve most of the rest of North Terrace.

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Re: Vision: CBD Underground Rail Loop

#27 Post by Nathan » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:08 pm

claybro wrote:No Nathan, it was in response to PeFe proposal of an underground station at the RAH (new) site and the next CBD station on KWS south of Rundle Mall. I was mearly pointing out any new North Terrace underground station should be located close to the current station location to maximise use for ALL North terrace attractions including Adelaide oval. Shifting the station 1km to the West and under the new RAH whilst serving the hospital well, would not serve most of the rest of North Terrace.
That's my thoughts as well, the common sense approach. Any underground station on North Terrace should use the existing station.

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Re: Vision: CBD Underground Rail Loop

#28 Post by ChillyPhilly » Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:20 pm

Just remember the 500m rule: the maximum distance people are willing to walk to access public transport services.
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Re: Vision: CBD Underground Rail Loop

#29 Post by Goya's Line » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:33 am

Received an advertising brochure for 'The Square' at Woodville West this week detailing close proximity to the Grange line. I also caught most of the Today Tonight public transport story (yesterday/last night) where Woodville', Clipsal and other TODs didn't rate a mention. Good to see the north-west fulfilling more of it's corridor potential despite public omissions.

By the way PeFe wasn't far off the mark with 65k - it was 62.5k in 1965 and the curtain-raiser to some double blues dominance.

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Re: Vision: CBD Underground Rail Loop

#30 Post by Shahkar » Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:19 pm

So...does anyone know if Steven supports this?

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