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Re: New Adelaide public transport hub

Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:43 pm
by SRW
I think it’s a bit of a fancy to desire extensive underground thoroughfares that would then deprive street level (i.e. the urban grain) of much needed life and activity.

Re: New Adelaide public transport hub

Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:12 pm
by Goodsy
SRW wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:43 pm
I think it’s a bit of a fancy to desire extensive underground thoroughfares that would then deprive street level (i.e. the urban grain) of much needed life and activity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emgeWSzXNhc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMtn3QZM6Us

They exist all over the place

Re: New Adelaide public transport hub

Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:29 pm
by SRW
Goodsy wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:12 pm
SRW wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:43 pm
I think it’s a bit of a fancy to desire extensive underground thoroughfares that would then deprive street level (i.e. the urban grain) of much needed life and activity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emgeWSzXNhc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMtn3QZM6Us

They exist all over the place
I understand that, but my point is they're not suited nor needed in Adelaide.

Better, though mostly inessential, would be a system of ground level arcades.

Re: New Adelaide public transport hub

Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:17 pm
by SBD
SRW wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:29 pm
Goodsy wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:12 pm
SRW wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:43 pm
I think it’s a bit of a fancy to desire extensive underground thoroughfares that would then deprive street level (i.e. the urban grain) of much needed life and activity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emgeWSzXNhc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMtn3QZM6Us

They exist all over the place
I understand that, but my point is they're not suited nor needed in Adelaide.

Better, though mostly inessential, would be a system of ground level arcades.
I’m not certain it matters whether the connections are “ground level” or “below ground” if they are designed well. The Philadelphia video above looked rather stifling and unpleasant, but the Toronto PATH isn’t that much different than walking through a huge Westfield centre.

Regardless of whether it is at or below ground, once you are inside, you are using the lowest public floor of buildings. Some of them probably have atriums and multiple levels of public space to blend the PATH and street levels, or enough ground slope that one side is at ground level and the other side below ground. To bring back my original comment, I think you would still go up stairs/ramps to go from street level North Terrace to under Hindley Street, just less of them than the current street-level exit. Then go up to a Glass-covered Leigh Street and Currie Street mall (protected from summer heat and winter cold) with the bus stops in a tunnel underneath accessed from both sides.

Re: New Adelaide public transport hub

Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:34 pm
by SRW
SBD wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:17 pm
SRW wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:29 pm
Goodsy wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:12 pm


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emgeWSzXNhc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMtn3QZM6Us

They exist all over the place
I understand that, but my point is they're not suited nor needed in Adelaide.

Better, though mostly inessential, would be a system of ground level arcades.
I’m not certain it matters whether the connections are “ground level” or “below ground” if they are designed well. The Philadelphia video above looked rather stifling and unpleasant, but the Toronto PATH isn’t that much different than walking through a huge Westfield centre.

Regardless of whether it is at or below ground, once you are inside, you are using the lowest public floor of buildings. Some of them probably have atriums and multiple levels of public space to blend the PATH and street levels, or enough ground slope that one side is at ground level and the other side below ground. To bring back my original comment, I think you would still go up stairs/ramps to go from street level North Terrace to under Hindley Street, just less of them than the current street-level exit. Then go up to a Glass-covered Leigh Street and Currie Street mall (protected from summer heat and winter cold) with the bus stops in a tunnel underneath accessed from both sides.
Yeah, I'm sceptical. Adelaide people aren't well-known for patronising multilevel malls. Look at the Myer Centre or, indeed, the North Terrace underpass. They'll just be walkways, in which case better to have people walking at ground where they can engage with business.

Re: New Adelaide public transport hub

Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:20 pm
by Ho Really
1NEEDS2POST wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:13 pm
SBD wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:52 pm
There is currently undercover/indoor pedestrian access from stepping off the train to the north side of Hindley Street. Ideally, this should continue under Hindley Street through to an underground/indoor bus station on Currie Street that includes a stop for every route that goes through (is that six stops each side?). Adelaide weather is not as extreme as some cities, but can still be pretty unpleasant in both summer and winter.

A roofed and airconditioned Leigh Street could be part of the plan if there aren't enough available building basements to link up.
The central market to railway station walkway could be put entirely below ground. This will make it faster and more comfortable for pedestrians. When the Victoria Square railway station is built, it could connect with this walkway.
Yes a possibility. Good you are thinking this way.

Cheers

Re: New Adelaide public transport hub

Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:23 pm
by Ho Really
SRW wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:34 pm
SBD wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:17 pm
SRW wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:29 pm

I understand that, but my point is they're not suited nor needed in Adelaide.

Better, though mostly inessential, would be a system of ground level arcades.
I’m not certain it matters whether the connections are “ground level” or “below ground” if they are designed well. The Philadelphia video above looked rather stifling and unpleasant, but the Toronto PATH isn’t that much different than walking through a huge Westfield centre.

Regardless of whether it is at or below ground, once you are inside, you are using the lowest public floor of buildings. Some of them probably have atriums and multiple levels of public space to blend the PATH and street levels, or enough ground slope that one side is at ground level and the other side below ground. To bring back my original comment, I think you would still go up stairs/ramps to go from street level North Terrace to under Hindley Street, just less of them than the current street-level exit. Then go up to a Glass-covered Leigh Street and Currie Street mall (protected from summer heat and winter cold) with the bus stops in a tunnel underneath accessed from both sides.
Yeah, I'm sceptical. Adelaide people aren't well-known for patronising multilevel malls. Look at the Myer Centre or, indeed, the North Terrace underpass. They'll just be walkways, in which case better to have people walking at ground where they can engage with business.
I'll bet you they will patronise underground malls. It's only one level down not 5 or 6 up. If they are not malls then just walkways.

Cheers

Re: New Adelaide public transport hub

Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:09 am
by ml69
Bob wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:32 pm
You can always submit your ideas to Infrastructure SA…

Bear in mind some of the basic parameters I think you will find they are looking at, and unlikely to change in their planning, include:

The proposed CBD underground rail loop that allows through running with the three proposed stations – Adelaide, Hindmarsh Sq and Victoria Sq-Central Mkt, and to address specific future high-volume passenger journey start/stop & transfer points at:
Hindmarsh Sq – rail & O’Bahn
Victoria Sq – rail & tram
Adelaide – rail & tram

Rail lines – keep in mind volumes - descending order in current passenger volumes – Gawler, Seaford, Outer Harbor, Flinders (anticipated volume), Belair, and the lowest usage, the Grange branch line - which may not exist by the time a CBD rail loop is built. To put into perspective, the current O’Bahn weekday passenger trips is approx 35K now, Gawler line >20K and Seaford <20K. The other existing lines combined approx 20K. Extension of Gawler & Seaford lines will happen, just a case of how many years away in their planning. I put volumes forward as they obviously influence planning.
Good thinking ... using future Hindmarsh Square station on the CBD rail loop as a transfer point between Obahn and the rail network.

I agree with your 3 CBD rail loop station locations. That’s where I have them as well. That’s all we need.

Re: New Adelaide public transport hub

Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:09 pm
by Saltwater
The underground section through Adelaide CBD should go straight up King William Street, with stations around South Terrace, Victoria Square and near the existing railway station. Plus probably an additional station near the cricket ground / North Adelaide. This does duplicate the existing tram line infrastructure somewhat, but means the Seaford and Gawler lines can be connected for through-running express trains, independent of the rest of the network. It may be possible to use some of the existing tram right of way to get from Goodwood to the parklands, but the good people of Wayville would probably have some ideas about that. Possibly an underground busway could also run east - west through the CBD for buses coming off the Obahn, and link up with one of the northern CBD stations to help distribute people across the city.

Any "loop" around the CBD will be difficult to achieve, given the city itself is not that big by the time turning circles and straight platforms are allowed for, and any curves in the track would significantly add to cost if it could impact existing buildings above. The preference is always to build in straight lines and under roads wherever possible, hence why the KWS option I think would be preferred.

In time the Outer Harbour and Grange lines should be converted to light rail, freeing up another platform or two at Adelaide Railway station. It makes no sense continuing trams up Port Road when there's already a rail line pretty much parallel to it, but the rail and existing tram lines could be linked up, and it would then be easier to extend branches out to Semaphore and into Port Adelaide.

Re: New Adelaide public transport hub

Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:42 pm
by SRW
I don't think anyone's suggesting a literal loop -- the weight of opinion is clearly for through-running. 'Loop' is just useful shorthand. But if we're going to go to the expense of undergrounding rail, it makes sense to extend the catchment east as well as south (with stations in the vicinity of Hindmarsh as well as Victoria Square). The maps in the ITLUP indicate DPTI's thinking on this with underground rail rejoining the main line around Mile End.
itulpmap.jpg

Re: New Adelaide public transport hub

Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:02 am
by Saltwater
Cheers, I'm new to Adelaide and hadn't seen that plan before.

I still think wherever possible the underground rail should be north-south under King William, and crossed by an east-west busway to take buses off the Obahn. An underground interchange could link the two to help distribute passengers across the cityl. A small element of underground retail could also be included at the interchange - there are never a shortage of phone repair shops or convenience stores that thrive in environments like that. Heading west the busway could provide faster connections to the airport or even connect up with a north-south corridor that has dedicated peak hour bus lanes feeding buses into the CBD.

In any case, none of this leads us back to needing any type of new transport hub west of the existing Adelaide Railway station.