Cars come last in transport planning: tale of two cities

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Cars come last in transport planning: tale of two cities

#1 Post by Vee » Sun Aug 24, 2014 2:40 am

Interesting article in The West Australian.
Cars come last in transport planning
About 50 years ago, two cities on opposite sides of the world faced the similar threat of a growing, car-dependent population.

Their responses could not have been more different.
Perth built roads.
Vancouver did not.
....
"Our (Vancouver) work found what most cities now understand - that taking down big car infrastructure doesn't result in traffic congestion and gridlock if you're designing a multi-modal city."
The West Australian:
https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/247 ... -planning/

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Re: Cars come last in transport planning: tale of two cities

#2 Post by Will » Sun Aug 24, 2014 11:12 am

Although I have read these studies which support making cities less car-dependent, and intellectually I comprehend the argument, as a motorist, there is a part of me which makes me feel uneasy at these changes.

Maybe, had I grown up in Europe I would have a different point of view, but because I grew up here, public transport brings back memories of when I was a schoolboy. I associate public transport with school children, the poor and the feral.

As a professional, I like the comfort of my car and the fact that I can choose who comes into it and the circumstances in which they come in.

From discussions with colleagues, this is cited as a major mental block to catching public transport.

To make this transition into a less car-dependent future, the authorities need to help change this mentality and make people like me feel comfortable and safe taking public transport.

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Re: Cars come last in transport planning: tale of two cities

#3 Post by pushbutton » Sun Aug 24, 2014 12:10 pm

Public transport would need to be a whole lot more frequent, safe, comfortable, and cheap for it to appeal to me as a viable alternative to my car. It would also need to stop in more convenient places and get me where I want to go at the time I want to get there.

That would take a huge amount of investment and a totally new attitude on the government's part.

There will always be some places public transport doesn't go, or not often enough. There's also times when I just need the space in my car to carry stuff. A possible solution to that might be a good system of cars people can quickly and conveniently hire, perhaps a system where you pay an annual fee and can use a fleet of public cars free within certain limits.

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Re: Cars come last in transport planning: tale of two cities

#4 Post by Nathan » Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:52 am

pushbutton wrote:There will always be some places public transport doesn't go, or not often enough. There's also times when I just need the space in my car to carry stuff. A possible solution to that might be a good system of cars people can quickly and conveniently hire, perhaps a system where you pay an annual fee and can use a fleet of public cars free within certain limits.
That's car sharing, and we do have it: http://www.goget.com.au

It's also an option for some apartment buildings. I believe one of the Guavalime buildings on Flinders St has a share car for the building that residents can access.

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Re: Cars come last in transport planning: tale of two cities

#5 Post by monotonehell » Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:37 am

This is a story that we have been hearing from select cities all over the World. Adelaide has become more car dependent than Los Angeles. We need to stop following the mistakes of others when there are examples to learn from.

Sadly people are such stickers in the mud when it comes to change. Public transport doesn't have to be horrible, we just need to commit.
Exit on the right in the direction of travel.

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Re: Cars come last in transport planning: tale of two cities

#6 Post by Aidan » Mon Aug 25, 2014 12:11 pm

monotonehell wrote:This is a story that we have been hearing from select cities all over the World. Adelaide has become more car dependent than Los Angeles.
Do you have the evidence for that?
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Re: Cars come last in transport planning: tale of two cities

#7 Post by monotonehell » Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:43 am

Aidan wrote:
monotonehell wrote:This is a story that we have been hearing from select cities all over the World. Adelaide has become more car dependent than Los Angeles.
Do you have the evidence for that?
The basis you use to answer the question can be pretty subjective. LA actually have a grid system of buses all over their metro area, as well as a few main commuter rail lines.

There's an interesting table on Wikipedia:
Modal split of journeys to work in a private motor vehicle:
Adelaide 86% in 2006
Los Angeles 78% in 2009
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_shar ... ys_to_work
Exit on the right in the direction of travel.

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Re: Cars come last in transport planning: tale of two cities

#8 Post by PeFe » Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:18 pm

Those figures for Los Angeles (78% drive to work) don't add up....the total percentage is only 93...I think the missing 7% would be car users. Adelaide and Los Angeles are both equally car dependent, but both have actively pursued better public transport options in the last 10 years (Adelaide has modernized and extended light and heavy rail, whilst Los Angeles has built a lot of light rail) If you are interested I discuss LA light rail here : http://www.sensational-adelaide.com/for ... =18&t=4804
I look forward to finding out the figures for public transport use in both cities for 2014....LA is spending huge amounts of money on public transport infrastructure (my guess is about US $1 billion a year for the next 5-10 years)
Vancouver is a tremendous example of smart urban planning, as a tourist you didn't even notice that public transport has priority over roads, all you notice is how the busy the city centre streets are every day, and how good the public transport is.
I overhead some American tourists comparing Dallas to Vancouver, they couldn't work why Vancouver seemed so lively when it is only one third the size of Dallas (Never been there but I believe Dallas is a "suburbs in search of a city" style metro area)

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Re: Cars come last in transport planning: tale of two cities

#9 Post by ml69 » Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:22 pm

PeFe wrote:Those figures for Los Angeles (78% drive to work) don't add up....the total percentage is only 93...I think the missing 7% would be car users. Adelaide and Los Angeles are both equally car dependent, but both have actively pursued better public transport options in the last 10 years (Adelaide has modernized and extended light and heavy rail, whilst Los Angeles has built a lot of light rail) If you are interested I discuss LA light rail here : http://www.sensational-adelaide.com/for ... =18&t=4804
I look forward to finding out the figures for public transport use in both cities for 2014....LA is spending huge amounts of money on public transport infrastructure (my guess is about US $1 billion a year for the next 5-10 years)
Vancouver is a tremendous example of smart urban planning, as a tourist you didn't even notice that public transport has priority over roads, all you notice is how the busy the city centre streets are every day, and how good the public transport is.
I overhead some American tourists comparing Dallas to Vancouver, they couldn't work why Vancouver seemed so lively when it is only one third the size of Dallas (Never been there but I believe Dallas is a "suburbs in search of a city" style metro area)
If you are referring to the Vancouver CBD downtown area as lively, it has one of the highest concentrations of residential apartments in the CBD of any city in North America.

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Re: Cars come last in transport planning: tale of two cities

#10 Post by oscar13 » Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:13 am

PeFe wrote:I overhead some American tourists comparing Dallas to Vancouver, they couldn't work why Vancouver seemed so lively when it is only one third the size of Dallas (Never been there but I believe Dallas is a "suburbs in search of a city" style metro area)
I was in Dallas a couple of months ago. I felt like all we did was drive on freeways continuously with ramps heading in all directions at the junctions. Hardly drove on suburban streets until we got to our destination. Very spreadout city, with suburbs hardly adjoining each other, but rather almost having their own borders..
It was quite amazing.
But quite obvious the CBD area was quiet and public transport was hardly visible.
So I would imagine Vancouver city area would be much busier with high density living. Perhaps something Australia needs in its cities to improve public transport..

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Re: Cars come last in transport planning: tale of two cities

#11 Post by jk1237 » Thu Aug 28, 2014 1:45 pm

this is hardly rocket science - more dense, public transport focussed, lively downtowns with large residential populations are cities that are far more livable and tourist friendly, than suburban, sprawling, freeway oriented car dependant cities.

There are no surprises that Vancouver, NY, and San Fransisco attract more tourists than Phoenix, Dallas, Houston and Atlanta

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Re: Cars come last in transport planning: tale of two cities

#12 Post by oscar13 » Thu Aug 28, 2014 4:04 pm

jk1237 wrote:this is hardly rocket science - more dense, public transport focussed, lively downtowns with large residential populations are cities that are far more livable and tourist friendly, than suburban, sprawling, freeway oriented car dependant cities.

There are no surprises that Vancouver, NY, and San Fransisco attract more tourists than Phoenix, Dallas, Houston and Atlanta
The West Australian have actually had a series of articles regarding Vancouver this week. Makes great reading.
And everything I've read about it, describes so many things you don't see in any city in Australia.
I wonder how bad the urban sprawl/traffic needs to get before the thought process changes in Australia!!??

Never been to Vancouver, but it will be on the list next time in North America.

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Re: Cars come last in transport planning: tale of two cities

#13 Post by Vee » Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:32 am

Car ownership in decline?

As traffic congestion increases in cities, gentrification and urban renewal continue, measures are made to rein in urban sprawl, motorways are extended, public transport and cycling infrastructure improve? and city cores see increased apartment living (with/without xxx car parks) and efforts to revitalize and improve liveability .... what else?

Demographic change and culture shift including new mobility.

This Autoblog item provides a view on new mobility, car ownership and demographic trends, with predictions and implications for future planning and development of cities.

The last car you'll ever buy may already be in your driveway
....
Thilo Kosloski, the analyst from Gartner Research, predicts that "by 2025, 20 percent of cars will not be owned by an individual."

As more people share cars or rides we're going to need fewer cars than are on the road right now. In fact, the trend has already started. In Berlin, Germany, there are 10,000 fewer automobiles today than there were a decade ago, even though the city's population grew by more than 100,000 residents during that time.
...
In the US, car sharing and ride sharing are increasing at a 34-percent compounded annual growth rate. At that rate they could capture 24 million customers by 2025.

It's all driven by economics. Why should you pay a deposit to buy a car which starts depreciating the instant you drive if off ....
only to have it parked for 22 hours a day?
Instead, why not buy your mobility only when you need it?
...
Demographic trends are also working in favor of ride sharing.
According to the Transportation Research Institute at the University of Michigan, only 66 percent of 18- and 19-year-olds in the United States have a driver's license today.

Thirty years ago that number was nearly 84 percent. And UMTRI is seeing a drop across all ages from 18 to 39 years old.
Autoblog:
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/12/11/last ... e-mcelroy/

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Re: Cars come last in transport planning: tale of two cities

#14 Post by realstretts » Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:56 am

I caught an Uber in Melbourne Friday night and it was hands down the best experience i've had being shuttled from A to B. Hurry up Adelaide and get on the Uber train

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Re: Cars come last in transport planning: tale of two cities

#15 Post by Ben » Mon Dec 14, 2015 10:27 am

realstretts wrote:I caught an Uber in Melbourne Friday night and it was hands down the best experience i've had being shuttled from A to B. Hurry up Adelaide and get on the Uber train

last weekend while in Melbourne I had a terrible Uberx experience, twice the driver could not find me. Eventually one of them did after I could see him driving around on the map going every which way. he then proceeded to ask me directions to where I was going - which I did not know as I was not form Melbourne (neither was he). Then the second time the driver called me and did not speak a word of English so it was pointless and I was forced to cancel and pay a $10 fee which I was later refunded. It seems anyone can become an UberX driver with little or no English skills and little to no navigation knowledge. It is a concern and while its cheaper there is usually a reasons for that..

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