Beer Garden

Anything goes here.. :) Now with Beer Garden for our smoking patrons.
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rev
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Re: Beer Garden

#3031 Post by rev » Fri Dec 20, 2019 9:15 pm

The issue isnt how many drops they made or who coordinates what.
Ex fire chiefs are saying a national approach is needed. Each state and territory shouldnt be left to deal with it.
Hopefully we see a national fire agency established, with adequate funding and resources deployed all around the country.

Our firefighters are helping in NSW due to the severity and duration of the fires there. Its so the RFS crews which have been battling fires for weeks since Spring in fact can get rest. All states & territories help each other like that.

The issue and point is that we should have more resources.
If the fires we had were worse (media hysteria aside), we'd be fucked...we needed more water bombers from a state suffering worse then us..
Imagine we had major fires next week when conditions in NSW are expected to worsen again..where are the extra water bombers going to come from?

Other states have fires too.
Resources are being stretched thinner each summer.

Like the ex fire chiefs are saying, national approach is needed.

And the Boeing tanker was busy in NSW today. Which illustrates my point. It was used the other week in Port Lincoln I think.

Is bigger better? Well the Boeing can dump more water or fire retardent over a larger area.

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Re: Beer Garden

#3032 Post by SBD » Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:45 am

rev wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 9:15 pm
The issue isnt how many drops they made or who coordinates what.
Ex fire chiefs are saying a national approach is needed. Each state and territory shouldnt be left to deal with it.
Hopefully we see a national fire agency established, with adequate funding and resources deployed all around the country.

Our firefighters are helping in NSW due to the severity and duration of the fires there. Its so the RFS crews which have been battling fires for weeks since Spring in fact can get rest. All states & territories help each other like that.

The issue and point is that we should have more resources.
If the fires we had were worse (media hysteria aside), we'd be fucked...we needed more water bombers from a state suffering worse then us..
Imagine we had major fires next week when conditions in NSW are expected to worsen again..where are the extra water bombers going to come from?

Other states have fires too.
Resources are being stretched thinner each summer.

Like the ex fire chiefs are saying, national approach is needed.

And the Boeing tanker was busy in NSW today. Which illustrates my point. It was used the other week in Port Lincoln I think.

Is bigger better? Well the Boeing can dump more water or fire retardent over a larger area.
The B737 tanker was used on the fire near Edithburgh on Yorke Peninsula.

It's a long time since I was directly involved with the CFS, so I have no idea whether bigger is always better. A 737 needs a lot bigger turning space than an Air Tractor, so might not be as appropriate in hilly terrain - I just don't know, and suspect that neither do you. There are also a number of C130-derived tankers in the eastern states. I think it was the Sampson Flat fire that had a couple of large tankers from interstate. They staged out of Edinburgh. The runway there has only recently been extended to support B737 operations.

Have any large tankers been over the Cudlee Creek/Adelaide Hills fires?

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Re: Beer Garden

#3033 Post by rev » Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:47 pm

SBD wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:45 am
The B737 tanker was used on the fire near Edithburgh on Yorke Peninsula.

It's a long time since I was directly involved with the CFS, so I have no idea whether bigger is always better. A 737 needs a lot bigger turning space than an Air Tractor, so might not be as appropriate in hilly terrain - I just don't know, and suspect that neither do you. There are also a number of C130-derived tankers in the eastern states. I think it was the Sampson Flat fire that had a couple of large tankers from interstate. They staged out of Edinburgh. The runway there has only recently been extended to support B737 operations.
1. Never said I knew anything.
2. Said that we have ex fire chiefs who think a national approach for better resourcing and equipping the various agencies is needed.
3. Pointed out some larger aircraft that we either see very little of or don't see at all in Australia.
4. Pointed out the ridiculous situation of a state under a more severe threat then us having to send fire fighting aircraft. - You don't think it's a ridiculous situation? Two mega fires burning in NSW, and they're sending us aircraft? You don't think that such a situation, where we don't have enough equipment/resources here, is exactly what the ex fire chiefs are talking about?

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Re: Beer Garden

#3034 Post by SBD » Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:53 pm

rev wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:47 pm
SBD wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:45 am
The B737 tanker was used on the fire near Edithburgh on Yorke Peninsula.

It's a long time since I was directly involved with the CFS, so I have no idea whether bigger is always better. A 737 needs a lot bigger turning space than an Air Tractor, so might not be as appropriate in hilly terrain - I just don't know, and suspect that neither do you. There are also a number of C130-derived tankers in the eastern states. I think it was the Sampson Flat fire that had a couple of large tankers from interstate. They staged out of Edinburgh. The runway there has only recently been extended to support B737 operations.
1. Never said I knew anything.
2. Said that we have ex fire chiefs who think a national approach for better resourcing and equipping the various agencies is needed.
3. Pointed out some larger aircraft that we either see very little of or don't see at all in Australia.
4. Pointed out the ridiculous situation of a state under a more severe threat then us having to send fire fighting aircraft. - You don't think it's a ridiculous situation? Two mega fires burning in NSW, and they're sending us aircraft? You don't think that such a situation, where we don't have enough equipment/resources here, is exactly what the ex fire chiefs are talking about?
I doubt it would make much difference - if SA had a large tanker aircraft, we would have lent it to NSW, then called it back on Friday. The net effect is the same - a plane that had been in use in NSW would be in SA for the day, despite fires still burning in NSW.

The USA has a B747 fire bombing aircraft too. As far as I know, it has never been to Australia, but it was sent to Colombia earlier in the year.

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Re: Beer Garden

#3035 Post by rev » Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:15 pm

I dunno why you're fixated o the larger Boeing tanker I mentioned, when I mentioned several other aircraft as well.

Since you've been in the CFS, can you tell us what fire retardant does and how its used?
Because that's what the Boeing tanker from NSW was dropping when it was deployed here in November.
Can you tell us why it would or wouldn't have helped, if available, in combating the Cuddle Creek fire?

Can you explain how the Ericson skycrane helicopters are used, and why they would or wouldnt help.

Can you also explain how the Canadairs CL415/515 which can load up on water in Port Philip Bay and fly as far as the current fires in NSW southern highlands and return to the bay, would or wouldnt help, and why its so successfully used particularly in Europe? And no Im not saying they would actually scoop up water in PPB and fly to the Blue Mountains, im just giving an example of the range of said aircraft.

Im not a fire fighting expert, havent been a firefighter in any capacity (I assume you have some fire fighting training from the cfs), all I know is we have former fire chiefs saying we need more resources and funding to combat bush fires as a nation, so I posted some aircraft names we have seen here and some we haven't.

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Re: Beer Garden

#3036 Post by SBD » Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:35 pm

rev wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:15 pm
I dunno why you're fixated o the larger Boeing tanker I mentioned, when I mentioned several other aircraft as well.

Since you've been in the CFS, can you tell us what fire retardant does and how its used?
Because that's what the Boeing tanker from NSW was dropping when it was deployed here in November.
Can you tell us why it would or wouldn't have helped, if available, in combating the Cuddle Creek fire?

Can you explain how the Ericson skycrane helicopters are used, and why they would or wouldnt help.

Can you also explain how the Canadairs CL415/515 which can load up on water in Port Philip Bay and fly as far as the current fires in NSW southern highlands and return to the bay, would or wouldnt help, and why its so successfully used particularly in Europe? And no Im not saying they would actually scoop up water in PPB and fly to the Blue Mountains, im just giving an example of the range of said aircraft.

Im not a fire fighting expert, havent been a firefighter in any capacity (I assume you have some fire fighting training from the cfs), all I know is we have former fire chiefs saying we need more resources and funding to combat bush fires as a nation, so I posted some aircraft names we have seen here and some we haven't.
I'm "fixated" on the larger tankers as SA regularly uses a fleet of Air Tractors at present, and you highlighted the larger aircraft used interstate. I don't know which ones are owned in Australia and which ones are leased for a season, but noticed the B737 is painted as RFS, so assumed that one is owned. All aircraft seem to be coordinated by the national centre, regardless of size. It has only been the last decade or less that SA has tended to put aircraft in the sky almost as soon as it is confirmed not to be a false alarm.

It would be much fairer to say I had fire fighting training. Several decades have passed since the date on my certificate. I was only in the CFS for a few years in my teens, and long enough ago that aircraft were rarely used (and never big ones), so I have no inside info on retardant or how they decide which aircraft would best suit particular situations.

Are you saying the Canadair scoop aircraft are dumping sea water on the fires? That could have complex outcomes afterwards in farm or bushland.

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Re: Beer Garden

#3037 Post by SBD » Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:08 am

I just noticed that the national fleet list includes six skycranes, including one based in the Mount Lofty Ranges (at Brukunga/Claremont). SO the CFS does have one larger aircraft in SA. It carries about two and a half times as much water as an Air Tractor, half as much as a C130 or B737.

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Re: Beer Garden

#3038 Post by rev » Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:17 pm

SBD wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:35 pm
Are you saying the Canadair scoop aircraft are dumping sea water on the fires? That could have complex outcomes afterwards in farm or bushland.
In Europe, yes, they scoop up sea water mainly. Vegetation doesn't seem to have a problem regrowing over there. Personally I'd rather they put the fire out or control it before it spreads, and then any outcomes from using salt water or fire retardant can be dealt with. Would be a much smaller headache then the alternative surely?



I've seen these things in action in the European summer, amazing sight and when there's multiple ones flying together the sound is incredible.
To me it just seems more logical to use aircraft that besides needing to be refuelled every so often, can pretty much operate for hours on end without needing to stop to refill water, that eliminates the need for more people & assets on the ground, and fly faster & hold more water then the smaller aircraft. Just reading the stats seems that these would be more effective and efficient.

https://australianaviation.com.au/2019/ ... efighting/
Yeh apparently NSW bought it.

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Re: Beer Garden

#3039 Post by Goodsy » Wed Dec 25, 2019 5:53 pm

Merry Christmas

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