The Federal Politics Thread

[Waewick]

There isnt plenty of pain for those that can't afford it.

It was a tough budget but really a fair bit of woe is me for the sake of it.

[Will]

There isnt plenty of pain for those that can't afford it.

It was a tough budget but really a fair bit of woe is me for the sake of it.

I suspect you are not unemployed, a student, young person or a pensioner....

For example, when I graduated from uni, I took 2 months to find a job. How is someone supposed to live without any money?

Also, this change to higher education is deeply concerning. Allowing universities to charge what they like and introducing interest on HECS debts will prevent people of modest means attending university. The cynical Christopher Pyne may say that students will still be able to borrow money from the government to pay for their studies, but lets remember how much universities in the USA charge.....

Whilst university graduates may have greater job security compared to other people, lets also take into account that salaries for university graduates aren't exactly lucrative. Ending up with a $200-$300K debt in return for a job paying $45-60K isn't a good deal. Even the "prestige" degrees aren't what they used to be. For example recently graduated doctors only earn $60k.

[Waewick]

But by helping with other training and education i would hope that means less uni for uni sake and more tertiary education that leads to work.

Having a trade is as good as having a degree and the skills shortfalls appear to be in that direction.

Higher education isn't all about University.

[Maximus]

For example, when I graduated from uni, I took 2 months to find a job. How is someone supposed to live without any money?

So, if you can't find a job for two months, it's the Government's responsibility to give you some pocket money until you do?

[Will]

For example, when I graduated from uni, I took 2 months to find a job. How is someone supposed to live without any money?

So, if you can't find a job for two months, it's the Government's responsibility to give you some pocket money until you do?

Well yes. If I have no income, how am I supposed to pay for food, rent, petrol etc...Isn't that the whole point of unemployment benefits?

Or are you suggesting young people should resort to crime, drug-trafficking or prostitution?

[Maximus]

Well yes. If I have no income, how am I supposed to pay for food, rent, petrol etc...Isn't that the whole point of unemployment benefits?

Or are you suggesting young people should resort to crime, drug-trafficking or prostitution?

Of course not. Don't be ridiculous. That's one reason why I generally never bother to read this thread, because people make over-the-top statements that tend to derail sensible and polite debate. Today, for whatever reason, I couldn't resist, and now I'm attempting to engage in sensible and polite debate with you.

A few thoughts...
* What did you do for money whilst you were at uni?
* Could you not have at least obtained part-time work (say, stacking shelves) whilst looking for a 'proper' job?
* During the X number of years you were at uni, did you budget for the possibility that you wouldn't get a job straight away when you finished uni?
* Before you even started uni, did you think about what might happen if you couldn't get a job immediately after graduating? Perhaps you should have gone straight into the workforce first (e.g. an apprenticeship, etc) and waited until you were in a better financial position before going to uni?

It took me around five months after graduating to find a 'proper' full-time job. In that time, I worked stacking shelves at the local supermarket, I stayed at home living with my parents, and I didn't go out much. I have no idea if I would have been entitled to any unemployment benefits -- I didn't expect the Government to give me anything and I didn't go looking.

The Government has already done you a huge favour by giving you a no-questions-asked loan to go to uni in the first place -- a loan that you don't even have to start paying back until you have a job earning above a certain amount of money. Personally, I think that's very generous. It was your choice (as it was also my choice) to go to uni and you knew, or should have known, all the actual and possible circumstances surrounding that decision.

As you said in an earlier post, salaries for university graduates aren't exactly lucrative. I studied two degrees immediately after high school and, on the whole, I regret it. I think I would have been financially far better off now if I'd gone into the workforce immediately after school and then perhaps studied at uni a bit later on. But it was my decision, I take responsibility for it, and I chalk it up to the experience of life.

[Dog]

The real pain will start when the States have to pick up the $80b cut to education and hospitals. Besides being a broken election promise this equates to a $6bn cut to SA.
What infrastructure heroes? put in a couple of $bn that would have eventually been spent on South road anyway and rip out $6bn, yes we will remember the Liberals as the infrastructure government my foot!



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[Waewick]

wasn't the option Welfare or Newstart under 30 - not welfare or nothing.

[monotonehell]

wasn't the option Welfare or Newstart under 30 - not welfare or nothing.

There seems to be confusion over this point. Previously Newstart was the only dole available to yoof. I don't know what "welfare" would be.

[Will]

Well yes. If I have no income, how am I supposed to pay for food, rent, petrol etc...Isn't that the whole point of unemployment benefits?

Or are you suggesting young people should resort to crime, drug-trafficking or prostitution?

Of course not. Don't be ridiculous. That's one reason why I generally never bother to read this thread, because people make over-the-top statements that tend to derail sensible and polite debate. Today, for whatever reason, I couldn't resist, and now I'm attempting to engage in sensible and polite debate with you.

A few thoughts...
* What did you do for money whilst you were at uni?
* Could you not have at least obtained part-time work (say, stacking shelves) whilst looking for a 'proper' job?
* During the X number of years you were at uni, did you budget for the possibility that you wouldn't get a job straight away when you finished uni?
* Before you even started uni, did you think about what might happen if you couldn't get a job immediately after graduating? Perhaps you should have gone straight into the workforce first (e.g. an apprenticeship, etc) and waited until you were in a better financial position before going to uni?

It took me around five months after graduating to find a 'proper' full-time job. In that time, I worked stacking shelves at the local supermarket, I stayed at home living with my parents, and I didn't go out much. I have no idea if I would have been entitled to any unemployment benefits -- I didn't expect the Government to give me anything and I didn't go looking.

The Government has already done you a huge favour by giving you a no-questions-asked loan to go to uni in the first place -- a loan that you don't even have to start paying back until you have a job earning above a certain amount of money. Personally, I think that's very generous. It was your choice (as it was also my choice) to go to uni and you knew, or should have known, all the actual and possible circumstances surrounding that decision.

As you said in an earlier post, salaries for university graduates aren't exactly lucrative. I studied two degrees immediately after high school and, on the whole, I regret it. I think I would have been financially far better off now if I'd gone into the workforce immediately after school and then perhaps studied at uni a bit later on. But it was my decision, I take responsibility for it, and I chalk it up to the experience of life.

I'll answer each of your 4 questions:

1) For the 7 years I was at uni, I had a part time job for the first 5 years. The final 2 years involved "clinical placements" whereby you are expected to work as a member of the "team", but for free. These placements usually went on from Monday to Friday from 8:00AM-6:00PM (on average). After this, I still had to study and prepare for exams. I'm sorry for being human, but this regime did not allow me to have a part-time job and still do things like sleep. I am not ashamed to admit that I relied on youth allowance for the final 2 years.
2) You make it seem as though jobs are plentiful. They are not, even for lowly, unskilled jobs.
3) How many teenagers and people in their early 20s budget for the possibility they may not get a job when completing for their education/training? Seriously, you are only making such a comment based on the gift of retrospect. Furthermore, considering I relied on a part-time job and then youth allowance through my studies, there wasn't much money left over to "budget" for the future. And finally, Australia is a wealthy country. Every wealthy country (with the exception of the USA - which isn't an example we should be replicating) provides its citizens with a welfare system. I didn't "budget" for the future because as a citizen of this country, I expect the state to look after me when I'm down on my luck. Isn't this the whole point of taxation anyway?
4) Again how many 17 year olds think of this?

And finally, whilst I am grateful that the taxpayer contributed to my studies, I do not feel like I should kiss their feet. Need I remind you that many European countries still provide free university education to their citizens. Furthermore, I am now paying tax - whilst I may not be wealthy, the state is benefiting from me going to university, because I am now and will for the rest of my career pay more income tax compared to the amount I would have, had I remained an unskilled worker.

[Maximus]

Will -- many thanks. I'm enjoying the discussion.

What's the point of taxation...? Well, that's a pretty broad question, and I suppose one's own opinion about what a government should provide to its citizens is, broadly speaking, why we choose to support one political party over another. I'm not at all against welfare -- very much in favour of it, in fact -- but I do think there should be a line. And, again, one's own opinion about the location of that line is part of what produces political differences. Personally, I'm not entirely convinced that you should receive pocket money from the Government for two months between the end of your degree and the beginning of a full-time job. I certainly don't agree that you shouldn't budget for the future because "as a citizen of this country, I expect the state to look after me when I'm down on my luck". That shouldn't be anyone's plan. We should all aspire to look after our own future, but at the same time feel secure in the knowledge that, if something goes wrong despite our best-laid plans, the state will look after us.

I do agree, though, that not many high school graduates think about planning for 3, 5 or 7 years in the future, including what the long-term implications of doing a university degree might be. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't. Yes, I'm speaking with the benefit of hindsight, and that benefit leads me to believe that we should put more effort into (as strange as it may sound) educating high school graduates about education. I went into university straight after school because that's what everyone else was doing and that's what was expected of me. There wasn't really a decision to make and I didn't think about any alternatives. In hindsight, though, if someone had been able to offer me the wisdom of experience and the possible long-term (financial) consequences of my actions, I may well have chosen a different path.

Anyway, beginning to drift towards tangents now. More than happy to continue the discussion, though.

[Vee]

Someone mentioned the SAHMRI as a possible beneficiary of the mooted Medical Research Future Fund.
This article, by the President of the Australian Academy of Science, shows how science, research and innovation will be big losers from the Hockey budget.

When Tony Abbott did not appoint a Science Minister, it did not augur well for the future. He has slashed funding for science and research including the CSIRO. Agencies for renewable energy and climate change have been killed off with Clean Energy Finance and ARENA obliterated.

Judgement day for Abbott on science and research funding
Excerpts below.

Future fund at a cost
As a medical researcher, I cannot help but be excited by the vision promised by a Medical Research Future Fund as it provides for sustainable long term funding. I am extremely disheartened, though, by the sacrifices that are proposed for creating this fund.

I am concerned that our future investment in science will be funded by those who rely upon bulk billing to visit the doctor – those who can least afford it – and by cuts to Indigenous health support. And removing the preventative health agency is short-sighted. Major pathways to health and well-being depend upon areas that have been cut: prevention, and medical care for the marginalised.

....

Medical research is not carried out in isolation. It depends on, builds upon and integrates with the work of physicists, chemists, biologists, mathematicians, engineers and many other disciplines.

Many cutbacks - this Government has slashed more than A$450 million from key science agencies that have all suffered substantial losses....

...

It’s extremely disappointing to see serious cuts for programs vital to adapting to climate change ...

...

Nations with economies in much worse shape than ours are investing more heavily in science, because they recognise that research and development represents the best hope for a healthy population and environment, and a strong and innovative economy in years to come.

We need to increase our research and development investment strategically – from 2.2% of GDP to at least the OECD average of 2.4% – and grow it wisely.

The commitment to medical research must be matched in the rest of the science sector, or we will not be able to meet Australia’s big challenges. We will not secure a strong and prosperous economy.

The role and fate of PhDs, vital in medical research and innovation, is a particular concern for the author, with budget changes to University fees etc.

The Conversation
By Suzanne Cory. President, Australian Academy of Science
http://theconversation.com/judgement-da ... ding-26684

[Dog]

There's $20m for research into who said what about pink bats!



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[Will]

We should all aspire to look after our own future, but at the same time feel secure in the knowledge that, if something goes wrong despite our best-laid plans, the state will look after us..

I definitely agree with this statement, hence why I went to university, and hence why I also did not hesitate in asking for help when I was unemployed.

[Dog]

The Liberal pledge, 6 broken promises in just one sentence.

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