Another widespread power outage in SA

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Norman
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Re: Another widespread power outage in SA

#106 Post by Norman » Sat Feb 11, 2017 2:13 pm

claybro wrote:You all keep blaming " the market" and Malcolm Turnbull, or some eastern states conspiracy to shut off SA power. This is not how it is being reported interstate, and actually is tarting to sound a bit unhinged. The fact is that in a region that derives almost half of its power from wind turbines, and those turbines stopped working during both events, last one because it was too windy, and this time no wind, then it comes down to thermal power stations to produce the power. There is not enough thermal power in SA to go it alone, so now Jay wants to build one. You can't absolve the unreliability of wind generation in either of these events, and it was the state government that encouraged and promoted wind over every other technology.
We have enough thermal generation to power the state, but they are turned off when solar and wind power can provide cheaper and cleaner energy. The problem on Wednesday was that the full gas backup was not turned on for whatever reason (reports say because AEMO got the demand predictions wrong) and that's when load shedding started. Solar and wind power was still in the mix, even if they only provided a few hundred MW, and the situation would have been worse if they were not there.

There was another report that said the Alinta coal power plant only had 4 years of coal left, so that was a big factor in it closing.

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Re: Another widespread power outage in SA

#107 Post by Spurdo » Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:09 pm

Can someone please give me a preferably unbiased explanation as to why the state government seems to have pushed so hard for wind power? Wouldn't it have made more sense to go for solar first with places like Port Augusta being hot and sunny for most of the year.

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Re: Another widespread power outage in SA

#108 Post by Goodsy » Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:08 pm

Spurdo wrote:Can someone please give me a preferably unbiased explanation as to why the state government seems to have pushed so hard for wind power? Wouldn't it have made more sense to go for solar first with places like Port Augusta being hot and sunny for most of the year.
I don't think the state government is pushing wind power. it's pushing renewable's as a whole, and wind power just took off first in this state.

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Re: Another widespread power outage in SA

#109 Post by PD2/20 » Sat Feb 11, 2017 8:30 pm

claybro wrote:You all keep blaming " the market" and Malcolm Turnbull, or some eastern states conspiracy to shut off SA power. This is not how it is being reported interstate, and actually is tarting to sound a bit unhinged. The fact is that in a region that derives almost half of its power from wind turbines, and those turbines stopped working during both events, last one because it was too windy, and this time no wind, then it comes down to thermal power stations to produce the power. There is not enough thermal power in SA to go it alone, so now Jay wants to build one. You can't absolve the unreliability of wind generation in either of these events, and it was the state government that encouraged and promoted wind over every other technology.
Total fossil fuel capacity in SA is currently 2897MW. Typical spring daily peak demand ~ 1500MW. Installed wind nameplate rating is 1576 MW. Assuming the widely quoted 30% capacity for wind gives ~ 470MW. Wednesday's peak demand was around 3030 MW. Interconnector capacity ~700MW.

The preliminary AEMO reports on the September event indicate that the loss of power from the wind farms was triggered by voltage disturbances from downed transmission lines and not directly by the high wind levels. Wind farm output immediately before the system collapse was 876 MW of which 498MW was lost because of the voltage disturbances.

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Re: Another widespread power outage in SA

#110 Post by claybro » Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:57 pm

Stated capacity of various generation, and what is actually being used in the mix at any given time are completely different. Thermal generation is mothballed due to "free power" being generated by wind and solar. Wind power can suddenly stop over a large area due to high or low winds, and as it is too expensive to be running the thermal generators, there is not suffice to backup, either way, if jay is to nationalise SA power, SA will be paying to fuel a station for backup, which should have happened in conjunction with all the renewables years ago.

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Re: Another widespread power outage in SA

#111 Post by bits » Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:44 am

Spurdo wrote:Can someone please give me a preferably unbiased explanation as to why the state government seems to have pushed so hard for wind power? Wouldn't it have made more sense to go for solar first with places like Port Augusta being hot and sunny for most of the year.
100% of the wind farms in SA were funded by the Federal Government.
SA is the chosen site because it has strong reliable winds, because it is close enough to "the roaring 40's".

If the Federal Government had an issue with the amount of wind farms perhaps they should have stopped paying to build them.

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Re: Another widespread power outage in SA

#112 Post by PD2/20 » Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:03 pm

claybro wrote:Stated capacity of various generation, and what is actually being used in the mix at any given time are completely different.
In times of lower demand, yes. However in times of peak demand stated capacity and dispatched capacity tend to converge.
claybro wrote:Stated capacity of various generation, and what is actually being used in the mix at any given time are completely different. Thermal generation is mothballed due to "free power" being generated by wind and solar. Wind power can suddenly stop over a large area due to high or low winds, and as it is too expensive to be running the thermal generators, there is not suffice to backup, either way, if jay is to nationalise SA power, SA will be paying to fuel a station for backup, which should have happened in conjunction with all the renewables years ago.
There is a distinction between mothballed plant which is currently not available to be dispatched and idle plant which is available for dispatch. With the demand variations (both daily and annual) that are experienced in SA there are going to be considerable periods of time when plant is going to be idle because of low demand even if the generating capacity was entirely thermal. Last Wednesday the SA wind farm capacity factor dropped steadily from 60% at 11am to 5% at 7pm, a marked but hardly sudden decrease (http://anero.id/energy/wind-energy/2017/february/8), and seemingly there was a greater than predicted demand in the early evening. This might suggest that traditional base-load thermal generation with its slower ramp-up times may not be the best backup.

As to wind power output suddenly stopping because of high winds, it is of note that the SA wind farms were able to sustain ~850 MW (55% capacity factor) under the September 28 storm conditions before the transmission failures.

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Re: Another widespread power outage in SA

#113 Post by Goodsy » Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:22 pm

maybe it's time to start using the turbines for pumped storage

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taum_Sauk ... er_Station

that had around the same capacity as the Kangaroo Creek reservoir and provided a 450MW supply for 8 hours. I'm sure there's countless spots all along the Flinders ranges that could be used

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Re: Another widespread power outage in SA

#114 Post by PD2/20 » Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:07 pm

GoodSmackUp wrote:maybe it's time to start using the turbines for pumped storage

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taum_Sauk ... er_Station

that had around the same capacity as the Kangaroo Creek reservoir and provided a 450MW supply for 8 hours. I'm sure there's countless spots all along the Flinders ranges that could be used
There are three basic requirements for puped storage:
1. A permanent body of water to act as the lower reservoir
2. A site for the upper reservoir with sufficient capacity and head above the lower reservoir
3. Proximity to the transmission network

In the UK there are 4 pumped schemes, Ffestiniog (360MW) and Dinorwig (1728MW) in Wales and Cruachan (400MW) and Foyers (300MW) in Scotland. Significantly, a substantial portion of the capacity of Dinorwig and Cruachan is set aside for black system restart rather than being used for day-to-day energy storage.

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Re: Another widespread power outage in SA

#115 Post by ghs » Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:04 pm

It's fair to say that Tom Koutsantonis isn't the right man for the job as energy minister.

He said last year that ETSA shouldn't have been sold off.
What else was SA meant to do to get rid of the state bank debt ?


Does he have any qualifications?
No.

Does he have a technical background?
No.

It's not surprising that SA is such a basket case when one of our main politicians used to be a taxi driver.

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Re: Another widespread power outage in SA

#116 Post by Llessur2002 » Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:35 pm

Again, what do you get out of being a member of an SA development forum if you a) genuinely believe SA is a "basket case" and b) don't seem to have anything positive to say about SA developments?

I don't agree with your post but it would be otherwise an acceptable discussion point if it wasn't for the sensationalist rehtoric of your last sentence which would be better placed in the Advertiser comments section.

And who even gives a shit if one of our pollies used to be a taxi driver? I'd be 100x happier for an ex taxi driver to represent me than a millionaire 'businessman' who's never actually lived in the real world or experienced everyday hardships like most of us have.

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Re: Another widespread power outage in SA

#117 Post by Vee » Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:04 am

Debate is hotting up....

PM and Ministers were told renewables not to blame for SA blackouts.
A FOI trail reveals ....

SMH:
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/ ... 212-guaxf0

And
The role of AEMO (and composition of its executive) is called into question.

AEMO sails under the radar amid renewable energy blamefest
Accusations that South Australia’s outages and price rises were caused by renewables have thankfully been debunked in recent days by the simple fact that Queensland power prices have run even higher, and Queensland is not big on renewables like SA.

...it is worth considering who operates Australia’s power networks. It is the Australian Energy Market Operator (AEMO).

.... and AEMO is a company which 40 per cent owned by big, mostly foreign-owned power companies. Its board is stacked with industry executives, consultants and directors from Big Law and Big Four accounting, whose firms earn millions from advising the power giants....
Michael West:
http://www.michaelwest.com.au/aemo-sail ... blamefest/

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Re: Another widespread power outage in SA

#118 Post by Vee » Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:40 am

Enough!

18 groups tell Government:
No room for partisan politics in energy - when reliability, affordability and sustainability of Australia's energy Market at stake.
A coalition of business, energy, investor, climate and welfare groups has issued a sharply worded wake-up call on the energy debate, declaring “finger pointing” and 10 years of partisan politics have destroyed investor confidence in Australia’s energy sector, “worsening reliability risks”.
The Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... government

Statement (18 groups)
via @political_alert
https://twitter.com/political_alert/sta ... 68/photo/1

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Re: Another widespread power outage in SA

#119 Post by monotonehell » Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:35 am

It's gone beyond partisan politics. The Federal Coalition are blatantly spreading baseless propaganda in order to try to rescue the coal industry from its inevitable demise. Even when subsidised to the tune of billions a year, that industry is in its death throws.

We need an ICAC.
Exit on the right in the direction of travel.

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Re: Another widespread power outage in SA

#120 Post by bits » Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:48 pm

I find it interesting how easily people are sidetracked.
Nsw had load shedding last week, they shut down a large smelter to reduce load.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/nsw/a/3438605 ... ion/#page1

That accounts for 10% of nsw power usage. SA shed 5%.
That was after telling households to use less power, why did we not do that in SA?

Was Port Pirie cut off or Olympic Dam or any other large power users in SA?
Why was cutting off jobs and growth in nsw perfectly ok?
Why wasn't that the market answer in SA if it is so widely accepted as a perfectly ok outcome?

NSW had a power generation capacity issue, they did not have enough generators to cover their usage.
SA did not have a power generation capacity issue, we have more than enough generators, we just need to turn them on.
Last edited by bits on Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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