[COM] Victoria Square Upgrade - $24m

[Shuz]

If a tram extension were to go ahead down Grote Street it would make an East-West tunnel under the square a little awkward. Maybe the tram could run down the restaurant strip of Gouger Street instead.

Cheers

I disagree.

An underpass of Grote/Wakefield streets should still be accomplished, with the tramline going underneath (in the underpass) for it to turn left at Pulteney Street and back left onto North Terrace, where it would merge with the current extension. Basically the formation at Victoria Square would be that the tramlines do not intersect. There should be a station in the underpass, with a staircase/ramp link back up to the square above, for those wishing to switch trams at Victoria Square between the North/South line and the East/West line.

Ambitious and expensive, yes, but I think its a marvellous idea.

[Will]

Even knowing I will probably be carstrated... What next for Victoria Square - remove the dual naming signs. It is and always will be Victoria Square not Tandanayana (or whatever it is)

Yes I also agree. This is silly political correctness.

Victoia Square is a European creation, it did not exist before colonisation, so I cannot understand how Victoria Square would have any significance to the Kaurna people.

[jk1237]

Maybe a little outside cafe or bar (similar style to Buskers cafe at end of Rundle Mall but with individual table umbrellas), next to the tram line, like a European piazza feel. Yes they are squares, but not every inch needs to be grass/lawn. Would be great if there was a east/west tunnel, but money money money!

[crawf]

It would of been nice if they converted Hindmarsh Square into a actual square again (similar to Light Square) as apart of the redevelopment, the roads on the western and eastern side are already wide so it wouldn't of taken much to do.

Could of been transformed into a amphitheatre or some sort of a entertainment precinct.

[rhino]

It would of been nice if they converted Hindmarsh Square into a actual square again (similar to Light Square) as apart of the redevelopment, the roads on the western and eastern side are already wide so it wouldn't of taken much to do.

Could of been transformed into a amphitheatre or some sort of a entertainment precinct.

What language is this? Would have, wouldn't have, could have.

I don't want to come across as a language nazi but some of this stuff really gets to me.

[toby1]

it's a little off-topic but i think Hindmarsh sq is being quite well redeveloped as a entertainment (or is that edu-tainment) precinct, and that is even before the neo-Academy complex takes shape.

but back to vic sq : it is a premium position for our city, and needs to be used, if not to it's full extent then at least better than currently. I have reservations about the tunnel idea, but also don't like the roundabout idea that has been bandied about. The sq is quite literally the centre of our city and should be treated as such. If it is to remain a significant crossroads then the traffic needs to be managed (and adding tram lines does not help, but i digress...). I also don't think fed sq is a good model because that sq is not a hub as much as it is an offshoot of their main rds. Vic Sq is the pivot point of our fair city and I do believe that if it was to be developed as a public transport hub then the life in the city could revolve evenly around our city mile, instead of largely being stuck on the northern edge.

Now it might sound like i have contradicted myself a couple of times here, but I think that all previous attempts at changing the sq have been half-hearted and maybe influenced too heavily by politics and financial considerations. How about we look at some of the biggest cities in the world and how they use their centres, and their transport hubs, and in some way combine the two aspects into something special. I am no professional urban planner or traffic management engineer, and cannot detail how this would all work, but imagine a pedestrian haven in the square, with free (solar?) buses connecting to north/south/east/west interchanges that then service the 'burbs and outlying regions.

Keeping the majority of traffic away from the center (succesfully) could give inspiration to those other cities struggling with overbearing traffic (see London's congestion taxes) and help to encourage the use of shared public transport, building on our initial dalliances with renewable energy vehicles (green, and the new solar, buses) and maybe growing into some sort of international public transport panacea.

we can make a very special opportunity of the layout Light (and/or Kingston et al) has given us - I would like to know what the rest of you think of this jumbled mash of ideas.

[crawf]

It would of been nice if they converted Hindmarsh Square into a actual square again (similar to Light Square) as apart of the redevelopment, the roads on the western and eastern side are already wide so it wouldn't of taken much to do.

Could of been transformed into a amphitheatre or some sort of a entertainment precinct.

What language is this? Would have, wouldn't have, could have.

I don't want to come across as a language nazi but some of this stuff really gets to me.

It was late

[Bulldozer]

we can make a very special opportunity of the layout Light (and/or Kingston et al) has given us - I would like to know what the rest of you think of this jumbled mash of ideas.

I agree. Victoria Square is the heart of the city and as such, should always be busy and people focussed. I think it's a great shame that everyone thinks it should have an East-West tunnel underneath it. What purpose would a tunnel serve other than to make it a more attractive route for people going from one side of town to the other? I say close it off, pull up the diagonal roads and force traffic to go right around the perimeter of it. Who cares if it's going to take an extra five minutes for drivers? Aren't cities for people, not cars? It seems to me that most traffic in the city is people crossing from one side to the other and these people would be better off taking the city ring route.

I think I've mentioned it before here, but I think Adelaide Station should be moved to underneath Victoria Square. Dig an East-West subway and run a bus tunnel on top of it. Train station at the bottom, bus interchange on top and the square on the surface. Trams would then stop on each side of the square and run in loops around a quadrant of the city... maybe even in a clover leaf type loop so that they cover the whole city. The advantage of digging a subway in that direction is that the train lines already run along the western parklands so could easily be diverted into a subway. On the Eastern side you could turn the O-Bahn into a rail line and bring it underground through the parklands and also have a loopback tunnel run around the Eastern and Southern parklands. (The whole route means you wouldn't have to tunnel under any buildings so it could be a shallow tunnel and probably done cut-and-fill.) This would then facilitate the cross-flow of trains, allowing more frequent services and the ability to catch a train from say Gawler to Noarlunga. The bus tunnel would take all of those filthy and dangerous busses off of city streets and leave lovely, clean and quiet trams to shuttle people around inside the city.

Imagine the vibrancy and life you could bring to the heart of the city with tens of thousands of people using it every day to get to and from wherever they're going. It would spur retail and hospitality businesses to develop around the edges and would be a magnet for buskers, artists and such. Now imagine it with 24-hour public transport!

With population growth increasing in the inner-city and set to boom all over and the increasing cost/scarcity of petrol we need to seriously consider the future role of public transport and how we can make it efficient and attractive to use. If we don't, then we're going to be pouring money into cars, clogging the roads and fouling up the air we breathe!

Anyway, that's my 2-bit rant.

[Shuz]

I swear ive heard that idea passed around so many times. Subways arent my thing.

[toby1]

Subways arent my thing.

werd up to that thought. i would not think that we have anywhere near the dense urban population to warrant that kind of expenditure

but keep the ideas coming ...
monorail anyone?

[urban]

Good plan bulldozer.

This would really boost development around the centre of the city (where it should be).

Having used the Sydney monorail I must say they are the most useless form of public transport available. They also destroy the public spaces they pass through.

[stelaras]

I have been reading with great interest about what fellow Sen-Adel people think should happen with Victoria Square.

I say with interest, because there have been a great deal of exceptional ideas, which, if implemented would make great additions to our lovely city. The ability to star-gaze is a god given right to every human being and should never be stifled. Therefore, in this case and for this topic no one is ever incorrect and no-one is ever correct. However, this comes with a huge BUT. The "but" is that we all need to be realistic, so here are my views:

I agree with the majority of people that Vic Square should be blocked off to motor vehicles.
I agree that it should be transformed into a large colourful, green, vibrant entertainment precint that would emphasise the capital and draw people to it and hence the city (similar to what Fed Square does in Melb).

In terms of how much it would cost to do such a thing, well lets say it is very affordable to do so with the present population numbers.

However, my biggest issue with this topic is everyone's insistance of building huge extensive public transport routes to carry people across the square and to various suburban regions. As i said we must be realistic. Adelaide is only a small city with a population of approx. 1,138,000 (total population of approx. 1,515,000).

Large underground subways (metro's) will not be a viable option in Adelaide for quite some time. NO Government (labor, liberal or other) will build such a thing just because they want to forward plan 50-100 years when the population and patronage will be large enough to use it.

My limited understanding of city planning and development (whether it is private investor driven or government driven) is based on profit margins. At the end of the day they/we all want to make money. Currently, the Public transport patronage in Adelaide is 15.3 % which equates to approx. 170,000 people out of approx. 1.1 million using public transport on a regular basis.

Does anyone here actually think that 170,000 people can support such huge infrastructure??? i think not (unless u ramp up the prices so high, that it wouldn't make sense to use PT)

It is nice for us all to dream (im a dreamer too), but governments do not dream, they look at the figures and if the figures don't add up, then nothing will be done about it...

The best thing that can happen to Vic Square:

1. Close it off from all transport (except the tram)
2. Convert it to an entertainment/ meeting precint, give people a reason to go there (ie screens, music, festivals, cultural displays, perhaps some free to public art galleries, areas to showcase small films etc etc)

The best thing that can happen for car access:

1. Build an underpass so that cars/buses can travel east west.


These are affordable solutions that any state government can do (it could be given major project status, thus bypassing quasi-political ploying by ACC)

just my comments and thoughts

[rhino]

Not that I agree with the dual naming, but I think you'll find its the land vic sqaure was developed on that the indigenous people draw significance from.

I find this hard to believe. Why would this land (Victoria Square), a kilometre from the Torrens, have more significance than an area along the riverbank, which would have been a constant source of food and water? By what incredible co-incidence can the land at the very heart of our city be a significant site for the Kaurna people? Colonel Light made up his street layout on a piece of paper, then placed North Tce just south of the river so that he could get his parklands in, and Victoria Square fell where it now stands. He didn't consult the kaurna people about where would be a significant place for the centre of a great new city.

I think it's more likely that the name Tandanya was used to describe the whole of this part of the Adelaide Plains, anywhere within several kilometres of the river.

Can anybody here confirm that Tandanya is even a Kaurna name, as I always understood "nya" (meaning "place")on the end of a placename is was from the Western Desert culture.

[rhino]

Not that I agree with the dual naming, but I think you'll find its the land vic sqaure was developed on that the indigenous people draw significance from.

I find this hard to believe. Why would this land (Victoria Square), a kilometre from the Torrens, have more significance than an area along the riverbank, which would have been a constant source of food and water? By what incredible co-incidence can the land at the very heart of our city be a significant site for the Kaurna people? Colonel Light made up his street layout on a piece of paper, then placed North Tce just south of the river so that he could get his parklands in, and Victoria Square fell where it now stands. He didn't consult the kaurna people about where would be a significant place for the centre of a great new city.

I think it's more likely that the name Tandanya was used to describe the whole of this part of the Adelaide Plains, anywhere within several kilometres of the river.

Can anybody here confirm that Tandanya is even a Kaurna name, as I always understood "nya" (meaning "place")on the end of a placename is was from the Western Desert culture.

[rhino]

I tried to edit the first post because Will was mis-quoted, but apparently it didn't work. Apologies, Will