[APP] Adelaide Oval Hotel

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Ser Noit of Loit
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[APP] Re: Adelaide Oval Hotel

#361 Post by Ser Noit of Loit » Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:34 pm

rev wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:56 pm
Nathan wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:29 pm
As neutral who has little interest in grass oval sports, I recognise the hill and scoreboard as intrinsic parts of Adelaide Oval's identity. Capacity is not a concern, so what would the point of removing the things that make it unique and identifiable other than satiating some warped inferiority complex?

Let's stop the dick measuring of which state has *the best* stadium, and celebrate that multiple cities can have excellent stadiums that offer their own character and experience.
That's the sort of attitude you should have when your kid is playing in an under 5's competition, and it's about participation and the kids having fun.

I think most of you are content with Adelaide remaining a big country town.
Sorry, I wasn't aware that liking how the stadium currently is and being in favour of retaining aspects that are debatable at worst means I'm content with Adelaide remaining like a big country town. Just because I'm in favour of keeping the stadium as it is and not another soulless modern bowl doesn't mean I don't want to see Adelaide boom and thrive. History and modernity can co-exist.

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[APP] Re: Adelaide Oval Hotel

#362 Post by Bob » Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:43 am

Nort wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:58 pm
Bob wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:56 pm
Nort wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:31 am


So they came for events and then found out about why it's unique.

Let's look at this another way, what events currently aren't happening at Adelaide Oval due to the hill?
Yes unique – bit like

The one way expressway once had

Part electric train set and part not

Being dumped in the scrub at Kewsick terminal after arriving by interstate train

Tourists having to share the free connector bus with putrid, practically fly blown locals wanting a dust up

Catching a decrepit mini bus to tour Australia’s premier wine region because there is no train and local shuttle service on arrival

One newspaper with biased views, and you cant even use it afterwards for toilet paper because it comes pre loaded with shit

Yes I am sure people go away saying – well at least its unique, too bad about international imagine, as long as the locals like it, who cares…

After all SA needs all the economic helping hand it can muster, not deliberately shoot itself in the foot. Need to look forward more instead of backwards.
As I said: Let's look at this another way, what events currently aren't happening at Adelaide Oval due to the hill?

You're proposing a solution, would be good to hear what the problem is it's going to solve.
Complacency. It’s the Adelaide way.

Half a century ago Adelaide was the #3 city in Australia. As they say the ability to survive is the ability to adapt to change. Adelaide and SA have not done that effectively enough during that time. Today Adelaide is #5 city in Australia and the gap widens daily.

Today is a constant battle on the international stage to get long term attention and investment. AO served a good purpose for the first 3-4 years especially with the novelty factor but needs to get a long-term plan in place to move up to the next level to remain relevant in the long term. Maybe the new hotel is part of that plan, now that’s it going ahead I just hope great efforts are made so it looks good.

As an example, Adelaide lost its international tennis relevance through lack of vision & planning, Perth & Brisbane took advantage. Adelaide needs a total revamp of Tennis SA to look at a long term solution to regain the premier lead in event to the Aust Open in Melbourne, not the current band aid effort underway. This is just one example of where the SMA should be considered as an overarching body to manage stadium strategy for all of Adelaide to meet long term vision – but needs the vision set in the first instance. Adelaide needs to look at what it needs when the city surpasses 2M population. Adelaide needs such a body to aggressively chase significant international sporting events and have them return on an annual basis, not as one-off novelty events.

Adelaide did the hard work to get an F1 GP to Australia, highly successful it was, until some idiots decided it wasn’t required.

Adelaide did the hard to get an international cycle race, now that it has become successful Melbourne want to take it, who’s ensuring this doesn’t happen again?

Adelaide did the hard work to get the first day-night Test match, what’s happening to lock that in as an exclusive Adelaide annual event?

AO is a centerpiece and in the long term a decision will need to be made - do you want one section left looking like an English County Cricket ground or do you want to finish it to an international standard? Do you want 60+K capacity that can be filled with specific annual events that can accommodate this? Do you want TV images continually showing one end that looks incomplete and regional, to the world? If you do want it to remain as is in the long term, then expect more annual events such as visiting EPL clubs to bypass AO for better pastures.

Complacency. It’s the Adelaide way. It’s that complacency over the past half a century that means Adelaide & SA cannot survive without GST handouts, it needs to move up another level. If a few people think the grass hill should stay to provide a bit of a country feel, then maybe AO is not the international stadium that everyone is making it out be?

AO is the best thing that has happened in Adelaide for a long time, I support that notion wholeheartedly, but don’t sit on your hands and think AO is the best, and will remain so, as is, forever. Without vision AO will slowly get left behind and as other cities rebuild and build new stadiums, competition becomes stronger to the point AO may start missing out. Perth has already taking some of that attention away from Adelaide, other cities will also as they plan ahead.

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[APP] Re: Adelaide Oval Hotel

#363 Post by Nort » Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:58 am

Who is talking about not having vision?

Many people who support the hill remaining do so not because of a lack of vision, but because of the vision of it being intentionally unique.

You talk about it attracting bigger events, but do you have any examples of events that didn't happen at AO which would have happened if there was a northern stand?

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[APP] Re: Adelaide Oval Hotel

#364 Post by Bob » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:06 am

Nort wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:58 am
Who is talking about not having vision?

Many people who support the hill remaining do so not because of a lack of vision, but because of the vision of it being intentionally unique.

You talk about it attracting bigger events, but do you have any examples of events that didn't happen at AO which would have happened if there was a northern stand?
Cant you think laterally for yourself? Do you need to be spoon fed every little piece of information? Why dont you go ask the SMA what they missed out on yourself?

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[APP] Re: Adelaide Oval Hotel

#365 Post by Nort » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:25 am

Bob wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:06 am
Nort wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:58 am
Who is talking about not having vision?

Many people who support the hill remaining do so not because of a lack of vision, but because of the vision of it being intentionally unique.

You talk about it attracting bigger events, but do you have any examples of events that didn't happen at AO which would have happened if there was a northern stand?
Cant you think laterally for yourself? Do you need to be spoon fed every little piece of information? Why dont you go ask the SMA what they missed out on yourself?
You're the one arguing that a Northern stand would make the oval better and attract more events, so surely you can name some of the examples you are basing that on.

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[APP] Re: Adelaide Oval Hotel

#366 Post by Nathan » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:26 am

If you take away the things that make it unique, then you're completely stuck in the mode of whichever stadium in the country is the most recent is the best. That's a game that can only ever be won for a short period of time.

Finding ways to leverage the unique aspects of the stadium is thinking laterally, seeing an empty space and wanting to fill it so it's the same as everyone else's is not.

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[APP] Re: Adelaide Oval Hotel

#367 Post by Nort » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:55 am

Nathan wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:26 am
If you take away the things that make it unique, then you're completely stuck in the mode of whichever stadium in the country is the most recent is the best. That's a game that can only ever be won for a short period of time.

Finding ways to leverage the unique aspects of the stadium is thinking laterally, seeing an empty space and wanting to fill it so it's the same as everyone else's is not.
Exactly. I assume any Adelaide Oval expansion would come with lots of government funding. If it becomes essential and the Oval can't do it's job without a Northern stand, or it can be shown that a Northern stand would objectively make the Oval better then so be it. However if it's just to "make it look finished" then what a waste. Imagine instead if those resources were put into enhancing the park lands, bringing them closer to their potential. The hill as a bridge that connects the stadium to them, every shot of it an advertisement for one of the things that makes Adelaide unique.

It's something I've been wanting to make a thread about in the Visions/Suggestions section and I might have to soon (we are taking this thread a bit off track) because for long term vision Adelaide shouldn't be looking to be a smaller Melbourne or Sydney, but looking to embrace the things we do have. A city sat in lush green park-lands, surrounded by sporting fields, botanic gardens, and public spaces like Singapores gardens by the bay, and all advertised any time one of the hundreds of millions of people watching an international cricket match sees the hill.

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[APP] Re: Adelaide Oval Hotel

#368 Post by Llessur2002 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:14 pm

I absolutely love the Oval. We have taken both interstate and overseas visitors to see either footy or cricket and they have all loved it – there was no mention of it looking unfinished, in fact the hill and scoreboard were praised. During the last Ashes series I was sat next to a group of fellas over from WA who spent a good 15 minutes on the opening day talking about how great the Oval was (and how Adelaide in general had surpassed their expectations). Again, no mention of it being unfinished or more fitting to a country town.

I’ve never once heard a footy or cricket commentator speak badly of the Oval, in fact they normally heap praise on both the ground itself and the atmosphere (something that certainly seems to be lacking in some of the interstate grounds). I don’t really hear the same level of praise for the interstate grounds.

I attend most Crows home games and for the last five years have always stood on the hill. The atmosphere is great, lots of barracking and high jinks that you just don’t get in the seated areas. This year is the first year I’ve bought a member pass for the western stand and, whilst the view is arguably better, I’m going back to GA next year as it’s silent up there in comparison. I’ve (begrudgingly) been to a few Port home games with family and the distinction is still just as big so it’s not just a Crows thing.

It's the same for the cricket – the hill (particularly the eastern end near the scoreboard) is very fun and lively at all formats of the game (especially if the Barmy Army are in town), the atmosphere is far more staid in the stands. From experience the hill appeals particularly to the under 40 crowd who see the games as much as a social event as a sporting fixture. Whether or not that market would still be maintained in its entirety if the hill was replaced with yet another seating area is questionable.

The oval in its current format is iconic. As soon as you catch a glimpse of the scoreboard on TV you know exactly where the match is being played. That just isn’t true for the other grounds – Optus, Marvel, even the MCG aren’t that easily distinguishable at first glance.

We have something that’s unique, is well-liked (a few members of this forum aside), has adequate capacity and works. Why change it?

I'd support redevelopment of the eastern stand with an additional tier of seating long before touching the hill.
Last edited by Llessur2002 on Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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[APP] Re: Adelaide Oval Hotel

#369 Post by SBD » Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:45 pm

Bob wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:43 am
...

AO is a centerpiece and in the long term a decision will need to be made - do you want one section left looking like an English County Cricket ground or do you want to finish it to an international standard? Do you want 60+K capacity that can be filled with specific annual events that can accommodate this? Do you want TV images continually showing one end that looks incomplete and regional, to the world? If you do want it to remain as is in the long term, then expect more annual events such as visiting EPL clubs to bypass AO for better pastures.

Complacency. It’s the Adelaide way. It’s that complacency over the past half a century that means Adelaide & SA cannot survive without GST handouts, it needs to move up another level. If a few people think the grass hill should stay to provide a bit of a country feel, then maybe AO is not the international stadium that everyone is making it out be?

AO is the best thing that has happened in Adelaide for a long time, I support that notion wholeheartedly, but don’t sit on your hands and think AO is the best, and will remain so, as is, forever. Without vision AO will slowly get left behind and as other cities rebuild and build new stadiums, competition becomes stronger to the point AO may start missing out. Perth has already taking sovalome of that attention away from Adelaide, other cities will also as they plan ahead.
According to Wikipedia, Trent Bridge is home to an English County cricket team and seats 17,500 people. It is described as one of the best cricket grounds. That's a lot less than Adelaide Oval's crowd capacity. Nottingham's urban population is about three quarters of Adelaide's.

Trent Bridge is also used to play international cricket, despite these apparent shortcomings.

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[APP] Re: Adelaide Oval Hotel

#370 Post by claybro » Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:43 pm

The whole discussion re the Northern end may end up being resolved one way of the other anyway if Adelaide hosts the Commonwealth Games. I'm not sure the hill ticks all the boxes for opening/closing ceremonies and track and field viewing.

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[APP] Re: Adelaide Oval Hotel

#371 Post by Patrick_27 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:26 pm

If the discussion on this thread are anything to go by, the arguments against retaining the hill are completely unfounded, and as for the Commonwealth Games bid, Glasgow and Gold Coast both built a temporary stands over their hill and I suspect the same will happen in Adelaide because it's cheaper, and will keep the capacity of the oval beyond any commonwealth games at a manageable level. We don't actually require the extra capacity, that seems to be something that everyone here is forgetting.

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[APP] Re: Adelaide Oval Hotel

#372 Post by claybro » Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:57 pm

Patrick_27 wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:26 pm
If the discussion on this thread are anything to go by, the arguments against retaining the hill are completely unfounded, and as for the Commonwealth Games bid, Glasgow and Gold Coast both built a temporary stands over their hill and I suspect the same will happen in Adelaide because it's cheaper, and will keep the capacity of the oval beyond any commonwealth games at a manageable level. We don't actually require the extra capacity, that seems to be something that everyone here is forgetting.
Patrick, the arguaments about a northern stand are not about capacity. A new stand would not greatly increase capacity , maybe an extra 5-8 thousand because of all the standing room it would remove. It is about amenity. Yes, there are a few spectators that love the atmosphere of a "hill" there are cricket fans that love to "sit on a rug". These days though those fans are in the minority. Did you notice the shockingly small crowd at last weeks power game? People don't like getting wet, or cold. The crowds are generally dropping at AO events, and I have a feeling the shine is starting to wear off. The more corporate and decent seating they can fit in, is where the money will be made. Not people standing on a mound in cold damp conditions. Generally people from interstate or overseas expect a stadium to be all seating, and generally covered. They don't give a toss about seeing the cathedral or Moreton bay figs.

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[APP] Re: Adelaide Oval Hotel

#373 Post by Llessur2002 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:14 pm

The last Port game was a bit of an extreme - it was possibly the worst weather we've had all year. I've stood on the Hill during plenty of cold, damp games where it's been full and the atmosphere's been great. Plus, most of the seating other than the very upper echelons of the stands were empty too so you might as well be arguing for more cover for the existing seating areas before building another similar stand over the Hill.

Conversely, I've been to plenty of cricket games where there have been noticeable gaps in the seated areas but the Hill has been full. Horses for courses.

Additionally, GA entry to the Hill offers a cost effective way to watch sport at the Oval. More seats in place of standing = more expensive to go to the Oval for many people.
Last edited by Llessur2002 on Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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[APP] Re: Adelaide Oval Hotel

#374 Post by Ser Noit of Loit » Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:43 am

claybro wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:57 pm
Patrick_27 wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:26 pm
If the discussion on this thread are anything to go by, the arguments against retaining the hill are completely unfounded, and as for the Commonwealth Games bid, Glasgow and Gold Coast both built a temporary stands over their hill and I suspect the same will happen in Adelaide because it's cheaper, and will keep the capacity of the oval beyond any commonwealth games at a manageable level. We don't actually require the extra capacity, that seems to be something that everyone here is forgetting.
Patrick, the arguaments about a northern stand are not about capacity. A new stand would not greatly increase capacity , maybe an extra 5-8 thousand because of all the standing room it would remove. It is about amenity. Yes, there are a few spectators that love the atmosphere of a "hill" there are cricket fans that love to "sit on a rug". These days though those fans are in the minority. Did you notice the shockingly small crowd at last weeks power game? People don't like getting wet, or cold. The crowds are generally dropping at AO events, and I have a feeling the shine is starting to wear off. The more corporate and decent seating they can fit in, is where the money will be made. Not people standing on a mound in cold damp conditions. Generally people from interstate or overseas expect a stadium to be all seating, and generally covered. They don't give a toss about seeing the cathedral or Moreton bay figs.
With this logic AO desperately needs a roof to fix scarce crowds those handful of days of the year games are played in rainy weather. Also why should we prioritise interstate and international visitors over our own population? We'd remove the hill and heritage scoreboard largely for them? They've got more then three quarters of a big, modern stadium around them. Should Lord's Cricket Ground build massive stands so the Aussies who are used to our large stadiums feel at home?

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[APP] Re: Adelaide Oval Hotel

#375 Post by Waewick » Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:00 am

Can't see why you'd expand AO, it doesn't fill up enough as it is.

As for the big country town jibe, after travelling around the world, I take it as a compliment.

We'll never be the #3 city by size every again, it won't happen, we aren't the east coast let's play on that (which ib think is happening we just need less angsty locals)

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