[REJ] 79 Port Road, Thebarton | 37m x 2 & 31m| 10 & 2 x 8 Levels

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[REJ] Re: 79 Port Road, Thebarton | 37m x 2 & 31m| 10 & 2 x 8 Levels

#61 Post by Patrick_27 » Tue May 01, 2018 2:57 pm

It's nothing about the height for me, the building design is awful and they should be incorporating the old factory walls into the development.

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[REJ] Re: 79 Port Road, Thebarton | 37m x 2 & 31m| 10 & 2 x 8 Levels

#62 Post by how good is he » Tue May 01, 2018 3:02 pm

What I have heard is the developer wanted to keep the existing structure/walls but it was the govt architects wanted it demolished/removed for this new development.

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[REJ] Re: 79 Port Road, Thebarton | 37m x 2 & 31m| 10 & 2 x 8 Levels

#63 Post by [Shuz] » Tue May 01, 2018 4:39 pm

Now that's unheard of. A developer wanting to retain heritage, even though it's not mandatory to do so.

12 levels is exactly what is needed here. I'm not a fan of the design either, but this is about a prime example as you can get of a strategic infill development site, adjacent a key transport corridor, on a key arterial road, in a key location within close proximity to the CBD. It ticks all the right boxes for the sort of targeted inner metropolitan infill development that Adelaide so sorely needs.

To reject it is madness. They should have simply deferred it and asked for modifications to the design and then approve it.
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[REJ] Re: 79 Port Road, Thebarton | 37m x 2 & 31m| 10 & 2 x 8 Levels

#64 Post by noted » Tue May 01, 2018 4:46 pm

how good is he wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 3:02 pm
What I have heard is the developer wanted to keep the existing structure/walls but it was the govt architects wanted it demolished/removed for this new development.
I remember reading this in earlier discussions, and if true it makes the decision to reject the application partially based on the existing character even more absurd.

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[REJ] Re: 79 Port Road, Thebarton | 37m x 2 & 31m| 10 & 2 x 8 Levels

#65 Post by Norman » Tue May 01, 2018 5:56 pm

There's a bit more to the story. Here are the minutes from the meeting.
RESOLVED
1. That the proposed development is NOT seriously at variance with the policies in the Development Plan.
2. To refuse Development Plan Consent to the proposal by PRD Project Management C/- Intro Design for demolition of existing building and construction of a multi-storey mixed use development incorporating ground level commercial tenancy, 2-storey decked car park, 9storey residential flat building, four 3-storey residential flat buildings and associated ground floor car parking, vehicle loading, open space and landscaping for the following reasons:
  • The proposed development would substantially exceed the maximum building height defined in PDC 13 of the Urban Corridor Zone and as stated in the Boulevard Policy Area’s desired character statement;
  • The proposed podium treatment would be unconvincing in terms of built form and relationship to the setting of the neighbouring state heritage building, contrary to the intent of Objective 3 and PDC 6 of the Development Plan’s General Section – Heritage Places policy, Objective 3 of the Development Plan’s General Section – Medium and High Rise Development (3 or More Storeys) policy and PDC 7 of the Development Plan’s General Section – Design and Appearance policy;
  • The development would result in poor residential amenity for the central town houses in terms of access to natural light open space directly accessible to living spaces and entry configuration contrary to the intent of PDC 10, PDC 11, PDC 12 and PDC 18 of the Development Plan’s General Section – Residential Development policy, PDC 14 of the Development Plan’s General Section – Medium and High Rise Development (3 or More Storeys) policy and PDC 9 of the Development Plan’s General Section – Design and Appearance policy; and
  • The development would result in poor residential amenity for the apartments in terms of distances from a single lift core and communal open space to some apartments being excessive, contrary to the intent of Objectives 2 and 4 of the Development Plan’s General Section – Medium and High Rise Development (3 or More Storeys) policy.
The development plan is a plan developed by the council, government and the community. If the negotiated outcome was for an 8 storey limit, then it needs to be respected. There are more stakeholders here than just the council, state government and the developers.

Additionally, height was not the only factor here, just the one that grabs the headlines. The decision needs to be judged as a whole on all points, not just one.

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[REJ] Re: 79 Port Road, Thebarton | 37m x 2 & 31m| 10 & 2 x 8 Levels

#66 Post by SRW » Tue May 01, 2018 7:17 pm

The article stated that this had been deferred last year, but the the developer chose not to address the major concerns the panel had expressed. Hence they refused. Blame's kinda on the developer then.

Personally I think the height is fine, but if they're going to go higher than the development plan allows there has to be a trade off with outstanding design or amenity. This proposal clearly had neither.
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[REJ] Re: 79 Port Road, Thebarton | 37m x 2 & 31m| 10 & 2 x 8 Levels

#67 Post by Algernon » Thu May 03, 2018 1:48 am

wilkiebarkid wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 2:15 pm
This is exactly what SHOULD be permitted on a very wide arterial road with a tram line right outside!

Embarrassing decision.
Would you live in it? I sure wouldn't. Fronting 6 lanes of traffic and its noise... no thanks. Look straight up and the planes are almost skimming your head. Usually you trade in the luxury of a suburban home for the convenience of apartment living. But this location... you have to get in your car just to do a basic grocery shop. The amenity of the area... well, there's the parkland on one side, but you're in the middle of an industrial estate on the other. As a kid I used to love breathing in the brewery air as I drove up Port Rd on the way to school. That smell would get pretty old living 10 floors up and sucking that air in like you're punching a beer dart.

Won't lose sleep over this at all.

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[REJ] Re: 79 Port Road, Thebarton | 37m x 2 & 31m| 10 & 2 x 8 Levels

#68 Post by Llessur2002 » Thu May 03, 2018 8:07 am

Algernon wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 1:48 am
Would you live in it? I sure wouldn't. Fronting 6 lanes of traffic and its noise... no thanks. Look straight up and the planes are almost skimming your head. Usually you trade in the luxury of a suburban home for the convenience of apartment living. But this location... you have to get in your car just to do a basic grocery shop. The amenity of the area... well, there's the parkland on one side, but you're in the middle of an industrial estate on the other. As a kid I used to love breathing in the brewery air as I drove up Port Rd on the way to school. That smell would get pretty old living 10 floors up and sucking that air in like you're punching a beer dart.

Won't lose sleep over this at all.
So would you rule out all residential development along this stretch then? This site, the Coca Cola site, the Thebarton Campus site? If not residential then what?

With regards to grocery shopping, bear in mind that this development would be one tram stop away from the IGA at Bowden and a 10 minute ride away from Woolies, Coles and soon Foodland on Rundle Mall. Developments like this are perfect for a lifestyle with a low reliance on cars. A couple does not need a car to do a weekly grocery shop - the other half and I have always walked to the supermarket and have no problems carrying a week's food home between us. In Europe that's just how many city dwellers live - I didn't have a car in the UK for about 6 years and it didn't bother me at all (I know you can't do that just anywhere in metropolitan Adelaide but in this location it would be entirely possible, depending on your lifestyle - work location etc).

If I were back in my twenties and childless I'd definitely consider living here - the Wheaty is right round the corner, parklands just over the road, tram stop literally on the doorstep, Plant 4 at Bowden and the Gov are a 3 minute tram ride away, the City is 5-10 minutes away by tram or 5 minutes by bike, Glenelg a 40 minute tram ride away from the front door. There's a lot going for this location. If they insulate well against the traffic and aircraft noise then there should be no problems here.

I very much believe this is exactly the development that this location needs. The aesthetics could be a bit better - it's not offensive, just a little bland - but I would have loved to have seen the old facade incorporated somehow...

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[REJ] Re: 79 Port Road, Thebarton | 37m x 2 & 31m| 10 & 2 x 8 Levels

#69 Post by crawf » Thu May 03, 2018 12:57 pm

Plus - interrupted views of both the city skyline and parklands, which will never be built over. Another major advantage.

It's smack bang opposite a tram stop. I'd live there in a heartbeat.

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[REJ] Re: 79 Port Road, Thebarton | 37m x 2 & 31m| 10 & 2 x 8 Levels

#70 Post by Algernon » Thu May 03, 2018 9:49 pm

Llessur2002 wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 8:07 am
Algernon wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 1:48 am
Would you live in it? I sure wouldn't. Fronting 6 lanes of traffic and its noise... no thanks. Look straight up and the planes are almost skimming your head. Usually you trade in the luxury of a suburban home for the convenience of apartment living. But this location... you have to get in your car just to do a basic grocery shop. The amenity of the area... well, there's the parkland on one side, but you're in the middle of an industrial estate on the other. As a kid I used to love breathing in the brewery air as I drove up Port Rd on the way to school. That smell would get pretty old living 10 floors up and sucking that air in like you're punching a beer dart.

Won't lose sleep over this at all.
So would you rule out all residential development along this stretch then? This site, the Coca Cola site, the Thebarton Campus site? If not residential then what?

With regards to grocery shopping, bear in mind that this development would be one tram stop away from the IGA at Bowden and a 10 minute ride away from Woolies, Coles and soon Foodland on Rundle Mall. Developments like this are perfect for a lifestyle with a low reliance on cars. A couple does not need a car to do a weekly grocery shop - the other half and I have always walked to the supermarket and have no problems carrying a week's food home between us. In Europe that's just how many city dwellers live - I didn't have a car in the UK for about 6 years and it didn't bother me at all (I know you can't do that just anywhere in metropolitan Adelaide but in this location it would be entirely possible, depending on your lifestyle - work location etc).

If I were back in my twenties and childless I'd definitely consider living here - the Wheaty is right round the corner, parklands just over the road, tram stop literally on the doorstep, Plant 4 at Bowden and the Gov are a 3 minute tram ride away, the City is 5-10 minutes away by tram or 5 minutes by bike, Glenelg a 40 minute tram ride away from the front door. There's a lot going for this location. If they insulate well against the traffic and aircraft noise then there should be no problems here.

I very much believe this is exactly the development that this location needs. The aesthetics could be a bit better - it's not offensive, just a little bland - but I would have loved to have seen the old facade incorporated somehow...
When cities look to invest and grow there's this tendency to view industrial land as an obvious first choice for redevelopment. But in reality cities can't be beautiful villages everywhere. They need industry. I don't think that strip along Port Rd is particularly desirable for residential development and should probably remain zoned as it is. I grew up in the area and never saw this massive shortfall of demand that urgently needed filling with 3 residential towers. Adelaide's growth is still slow enough that the governments need to ration growth among targeted areas to achieve some semblance of viability to those regeneration projects. If something like this pops up in random locations like Thebarton then that's a few hundred more dwellings of supply dragging down Bowden, the Port, the city centre revival et al.

It does have its benefits in the proximity to the tram line, but that's not to say it makes it a good spot to live. It's equally reflective that the tram line goes through areas which aren't particularly suitable. Not knocking the tram extension though, as its destination is logical and there has to be track in between point A and B, so if it runs by a few factories then that's just how it played out.

Skyshow would be nuts in one of those apartments though.

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[REJ] Re: 79 Port Road, Thebarton | 37m x 2 & 31m| 10 & 2 x 8 Levels

#71 Post by Nathan » Thu May 03, 2018 10:44 pm

Hop in a car for a grocery shop? There’s a reasonably decent Foodland a short walk away on George St.

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[REJ] Re: 79 Port Road, Thebarton | 37m x 2 & 31m| 10 & 2 x 8 Levels

#72 Post by Algernon » Fri May 04, 2018 12:22 am

Nathan wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 10:44 pm
Hop in a car for a grocery shop? There’s a reasonably decent Foodland a short walk away on George St.
Each to their own on that one. 400m is convenient walking distance. That narrows down to about 4m if you have 8 shopping bags for the weekly shop.

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[REJ] [PRO] Re: [PRO] Re: 79 Port Road, Thebarton | 37m x 2 & 31m| 10 & 2 x 8 Levels

#73 Post by Norman » Fri May 04, 2018 8:43 am

Algernon wrote:
Nathan wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 10:44 pm
Hop in a car for a grocery shop? There’s a reasonably decent Foodland a short walk away on George St.
Each to their own on that one. 400m is convenient walking distance. That narrows down to about 4m if you have 8 shopping bags for the weekly shop.
Each to their own indeed, when I was living in a small apartment in country NSW I was happy to walk 1km to the supermarket and back to get groceries for 2-3 days. Also reduced a lot of food waste.

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[REJ] Re: 79 Port Road, Thebarton | 37m x 2 & 31m| 10 & 2 x 8 Levels

#74 Post by Llessur2002 » Fri May 04, 2018 9:10 am

Algernon wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 9:49 pm
When cities look to invest and grow there's this tendency to view industrial land as an obvious first choice for redevelopment. But in reality cities can't be beautiful villages everywhere. They need industry. I don't think that strip along Port Rd is particularly desirable for residential development and should probably remain zoned as it is. I grew up in the area and never saw this massive shortfall of demand that urgently needed filling with 3 residential towers. Adelaide's growth is still slow enough that the governments need to ration growth among targeted areas to achieve some semblance of viability to those regeneration projects. If something like this pops up in random locations like Thebarton then that's a few hundred more dwellings of supply dragging down Bowden, the Port, the city centre revival et al.

It does have its benefits in the proximity to the tram line, but that's not to say it makes it a good spot to live. It's equally reflective that the tram line goes through areas which aren't particularly suitable. Not knocking the tram extension though, as its destination is logical and there has to be track in between point A and B, so if it runs by a few factories then that's just how it played out.

Skyshow would be nuts in one of those apartments though.
This really is a case of each to their own as, like I said above, if I were a first time buyer in my twenties - either single or in a couple - I would absolutely consider this development because of its location and I am sure I'm not alone here.

I think in Adelaide there's a tendency to view all new developments from the perspective of traditional family units who need to buy a house that will last them the next 10-15 years with outdoor space, room for a couple of cars etc but as house prices increase we're moving closer to the European (and interstate) model of first time buyers moving into a smaller apartment for a few years before moving the next step up the ladder into a house. Buyers in that bracket are often more interested in local amenity and connectivity than whether or not they're living next to an arterial road. This site checks an awful lot of boxes - close to the city, the pubs (including a micro brewery on the ground floor), the tram, the parklands (including the linear park to Henley Beach). I know a few people who lived in town houses around the Bowden area through their twenties - they worked in the city, very rarely used their cars and absolutely loved it. If the price is right for these apartments then I can see them being very popular indeed.

Plus, let's not forget that Thebarton already has a sizable residential community - it's not as if these will be the first residents in the area by any stretch of the imagination. In the medium-term when the Coca Cola site and Thebarton campus are redeveloped (one or both of which I am sure will include a supermarket as well as other amenities) then I can see this being a very attractive area for first time buyers and downsizers to live.

Also, I think we've really got to move on from the mentality that everyone needs to use a car to visit the supermarket. Across Europe (and most likely in Sydney and Melbourne) the trend has been to move from a large weekly shop towards convenience shopping two or three times a week. We will follow eventually, especially when/if trading hours are deregulated. I walk 500m to Coles a couple of times a week to pick up our shopping, it's literally just around the corner - 750m would be easy, 1km would probably be the limit on 30 degree plus days but fine at other times. If you lived here and wanted to do a big shop you could hop on the tram to the new Gawler Place stop - a 10 minute trip each way with trams running every 10-15 minutes and it's a 200m walk from the tram stop to the supermarket. Plus, the likelihood is that whoever lives here will work in the city and be able to visit the supermarket on their way home and then take a tram right to their front door. Sounds pretty peachy to me.

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[REJ] Re: 79 Port Road, Thebarton | 37m x 2 & 31m| 10 & 2 x 8 Levels

#75 Post by rev » Fri May 04, 2018 11:51 am

Llessur2002 wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 9:10 am
Algernon wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 9:49 pm
When cities look to invest and grow there's this tendency to view industrial land as an obvious first choice for redevelopment. But in reality cities can't be beautiful villages everywhere. They need industry. I don't think that strip along Port Rd is particularly desirable for residential development and should probably remain zoned as it is. I grew up in the area and never saw this massive shortfall of demand that urgently needed filling with 3 residential towers. Adelaide's growth is still slow enough that the governments need to ration growth among targeted areas to achieve some semblance of viability to those regeneration projects. If something like this pops up in random locations like Thebarton then that's a few hundred more dwellings of supply dragging down Bowden, the Port, the city centre revival et al.

It does have its benefits in the proximity to the tram line, but that's not to say it makes it a good spot to live. It's equally reflective that the tram line goes through areas which aren't particularly suitable. Not knocking the tram extension though, as its destination is logical and there has to be track in between point A and B, so if it runs by a few factories then that's just how it played out.

Skyshow would be nuts in one of those apartments though.
This really is a case of each to their own as, like I said above, if I were a first time buyer in my twenties - either single or in a couple - I would absolutely consider this development because of its location and I am sure I'm not alone here.

I think in Adelaide there's a tendency to view all new developments from the perspective of traditional family units who need to buy a house that will last them the next 10-15 years with outdoor space, room for a couple of cars etc but as house prices increase we're moving closer to the European (and interstate) model of first time buyers moving into a smaller apartment for a few years before moving the next step up the ladder into a house. Buyers in that bracket are often more interested in local amenity and connectivity than whether or not they're living next to an arterial road. This site checks an awful lot of boxes - close to the city, the pubs (including a micro brewery on the ground floor), the tram, the parklands (including the linear park to Henley Beach). I know a few people who lived in town houses around the Bowden area through their twenties - they worked in the city, very rarely used their cars and absolutely loved it. If the price is right for these apartments then I can see them being very popular indeed.

Plus, let's not forget that Thebarton already has a sizable residential community - it's not as if these will be the first residents in the area by any stretch of the imagination. In the medium-term when the Coca Cola site and Thebarton campus are redeveloped (one or both of which I am sure will include a supermarket as well as other amenities) then I can see this being a very attractive area for first time buyers and downsizers to live.

Also, I think we've really got to move on from the mentality that everyone needs to use a car to visit the supermarket. Across Europe (and most likely in Sydney and Melbourne) the trend has been to move from a large weekly shop towards convenience shopping two or three times a week. We will follow eventually, especially when/if trading hours are deregulated. I walk 500m to Coles a couple of times a week to pick up our shopping, it's literally just around the corner - 750m would be easy, 1km would probably be the limit on 30 degree plus days but fine at other times. If you lived here and wanted to do a big shop you could hop on the tram to the new Gawler Place stop - a 10 minute trip each way with trams running every 10-15 minutes and it's a 200m walk from the tram stop to the supermarket. Plus, the likelihood is that whoever lives here will work in the city and be able to visit the supermarket on their way home and then take a tram right to their front door. Sounds pretty peachy to me.
There's a Foodland around the corner about a 1km away.

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