News & Discussion: Trams

[SouthAussie94]

King William Road section could be used for a siding to store trams for peak hour services and I feel it might be only used on event days such as AFL games and Cricket matches.k

You may well be right. However, they have installed a scissors crossover at the terminus. That implies a somewhat heavy use of the stop, even though the crossover is of an outdated design. Having said that, I really don't know what they have in mind, but why install a scissors crossover for infrequent use?

I should add that what is stranger is that scissors crossovers with old tech facing points are not something you'd install if there was any intention of extending the track any time in the near future. Those points are ok for termini where the speeds are low, but these days high speed points are used if they are not at termini. Again, I don't know what the background is, but it certainly looks like the Riverbank and North Terrace termini are there for some long time.

What are the physical differences between the scissors crossover which has been installed and one which would allow for higher operating speeds?

[rubberman]

King William Road section could be used for a siding to store trams for peak hour services and I feel it might be only used on event days such as AFL games and Cricket matches.k

You may well be right. However, they have installed a scissors crossover at the terminus. That implies a somewhat heavy use of the stop, even though the crossover is of an outdated design. Having said that, I really don't know what they have in mind, but why install a scissors crossover for infrequent use?

I should add that what is stranger is that scissors crossovers with old tech facing points are not something you'd install if there was any intention of extending the track any time in the near future. Those points are ok for termini where the speeds are low, but these days high speed points are used if they are not at termini. Again, I don't know what the background is, but it certainly looks like the Riverbank and North Terrace termini are there for some long time.

What are the physical differences between the scissors crossover which has been installed and one which would allow for higher operating speeds?

Trying to describe them is tricky, but since pictures are worth 1000 words, here's some photos.

http://prazsketramvaje.cz/view.php?cisl ... 2013041401

The speed differences for travel on the straight through are 10-15km/hr for standard points (subject to local conditions, rules and different manufacturers), and 50km/hr for high speed points on the straight.

Edit. Here's one installed in a paved environment. The characteristic to look for is the extra steel around the point blade area and the point blade is continuous, not hinged.

High speed points

20171002120719-braník-001.jpg (272.1 KiB) Viewed 3102 times

[Goodsy]

surely when the loop is finished the Glenelg tram will just do a loop around the city and go back.. right?

[PeFe]

No the loop will be a separate tram route......the light blue route in the map below, even though I think the southern edge of the loop will now be 2 streets south.

[Waewick]

Bit of media heat on the lack of right turn


I realise many on here consider it simply to be anti-labor rhetoric, but it is an interesting situation.

On one hand i understand the desire not to blow the theoretical budget. However if that cost wasn't considered prior to announcing the extension, then not done to ensure the finish date is politically useful there are questions that need to be asked.


For the record, i am on favour of the tram extension.

[Llessur2002]

There was an article a little while ago (will try to find it in the archives) that mentioned modelling had shown that a significant impact to vehicular traffic would be caused by the introduction of an additional lights cycle for right-turning trams. Can't quite remember the specifics but I think the guy from DPTI touched on it in his ABC 891 interview yesterday where he said that without the additional lights cycle the trams could be run at 4-5 minute intervals but with it only 15-20 minute intervals. That's both lines, east-west and north-south.

I'd much rather take the hit on the right turn but have trams running at 4-5 minute intervals than allow the fairly few commuters who want to ride all the way from Glenelg to the east end to do that in one trip. I think he should have hit this point harder in the interview (and the knock-on effects to traffic by the introduction of the right turn) but it was difficult with that fella repeatedly and loudly asking him why an "artist's impression doesn't constitute a promise". ffs.

Presumably frequency of tram movements through the junction will be absolutely key when the additional City, Prospect and Norwood lines are built and therefore if a right turn was put in now it would be a temporary solution that wouldn't logistically be able to be used a few years from now. Imagine when the media got hold of that one - the $20M right turn to nowhere.

Providing it is true, I think DPTI should just release the traffic modelling showing with the right turn and without the right turn - I can't see how the usual pro-car sources could argue against that one.

[rubberman]

There was an article a little while ago (will try to find it in the archives) that mentioned modelling had shown that a significant impact to vehicular traffic would be caused by the introduction of an additional lights cycle for right-turning trams. Can't quite remember the specifics but I think the guy from DPTI touched on it in his ABC 891 interview yesterday where he said that without the additional lights cycle the trams could be run at 4-5 minute intervals but with it only 15-20 minute intervals. That's both lines, east-west and north-south.

I'd much rather take the hit on the right turn but have trams running at 4-5 minute intervals than allow the fairly few commuters who want to ride all the way from Glenelg to the east end to do that in one trip. I think he should have hit this point harder in the interview (and the knock-on effects to traffic by the introduction of the right turn) but it was difficult with that fella repeatedly and loudly asking him why an "artist's impression doesn't constitute a promise". ffs.

Presumably frequency of tram movements through the junction will be absolutely key when the additional City, Prospect and Norwood lines are built and therefore if a right turn was put in now it would be a temporary solution that wouldn't logistically be able to be used a few years from now. Imagine when the media got hold of that one - the $20M right turn to nowhere.

Providing it is true, I think DPTI should just release the traffic modelling showing with the right turn and without the right turn - I can't see how the usual pro-car sources could argue against that one.

Precisely. With the network layout as it is, it is hard to fathom why a right turn is needed, ever. The former network had routes from the city to St Peters an Paradise turning there so it made sense. But now?

The other thing is that if the right turn is never used, how do we stop it from rusting shut, the grooves filling with muck etc? Useless extra maintenance. Plus something extra for cyclists to fall over on. DPTI are right on this.

[Nathan]

Even ignoring the impact on other traffic movements, if you're going to have trams running routes in every possible permutation, then again you're going to obviously have less frequency. Far better to keep it simple, with high frequency to ensure minimal transfer time.

Aside from that, I was having a thought about what trams do which route. I seem to recall some discussion about the Citadis have trouble making that 90° turn at the North Tce / KWS corner? Given that, are we likely to see a clear split between trams, with the Citadis doing the Ent Centre <-> East Tce route (eliminating the hard turn, except when they return to the depot), and the Flexitys doing the Glenelg <-> West Tce / Festival Plaza routes?

[Waewick]

There was an article a little while ago (will try to find it in the archives) that mentioned modelling had shown that a significant impact to vehicular traffic would be caused by the introduction of an additional lights cycle for right-turning trams. Can't quite remember the specifics but I think the guy from DPTI touched on it in his ABC 891 interview yesterday where he said that without the additional lights cycle the trams could be run at 4-5 minute intervals but with it only 15-20 minute intervals. That's both lines, east-west and north-south.

I'd much rather take the hit on the right turn but have trams running at 4-5 minute intervals than allow the fairly few commuters who want to ride all the way from Glenelg to the east end to do that in one trip. I think he should have hit this point harder in the interview (and the knock-on effects to traffic by the introduction of the right turn) but it was difficult with that fella repeatedly and loudly asking him why an "artist's impression doesn't constitute a promise". ffs.

Presumably frequency of tram movements through the junction will be absolutely key when the additional City, Prospect and Norwood lines are built and therefore if a right turn was put in now it would be a temporary solution that wouldn't logistically be able to be used a few years from now. Imagine when the media got hold of that one - the $20M right turn to nowhere.

Providing it is true, I think DPTI should just release the traffic modelling showing with the right turn and without the right turn - I can't see how the usual pro-car sources could argue against that one.

I think, if that is all true, would make the whole thing easier to explain is if they had the city loop at least at concept stage and explain it in the concept of that.

As it stands,, people see Glenelg line, but only the option of going to Hindmarsh without disembarking. Show them how the loop is going to work and why the right hand turn is not needed then it should go away.

[Goodsy]

No the loop will be a separate tram route......the light blue route in the map below, even though I think the southern edge of the loop will now be 2 streets south.

picture

kind of silly though isn't? I mean the Glenelg tram could turn left and go down west terrace with the entertainment center section being replaced with PortLINK, doesn't that make more sense?

[PeFe]

Not really, the Entertainment Centre section of the tram may have gone down Grange Road instead

[Eurostar]

There are around 12 trams required to do West End to Glenelg route. At least a handful required to do Hindmarsh to Botanic Gardens route.

In Melbourne its common to change trams, should be common here too. Tough!

There are pdf files online showing the future plans including the City Loop route. Perhaps within the next 10 years we will have trams going to more suburbs, a tram every few minutes within the City and quick easy seamless transfers.

[Will409]

There are pdf files online showing the future plans including the City Loop route. Perhaps within the next 10 years we will have trams going to more suburbs, a tram every few minutes within the City and quick easy seamless transfers.

http://www.dpti.sa.gov.au/__data/assets ... _FINAL.pdf

I think this file may be what you are looking for. This appears to be part of the formal Business Case being prepared for the future expansion of the network and it does make for interesting reading.

[Nathan]

Workers will be back at it on North Tce this weekend - scheduled works for 10pm Friday 24th through til 6am Monday 27th (weather permitting). More track laying, concrete pouring, road resurfacing and line marking. SA Power Networks will also be continuing installation of new conduits.

[Waewick]

There are pdf files online showing the future plans including the City Loop route. Perhaps within the next 10 years we will have trams going to more suburbs, a tram every few minutes within the City and quick easy seamless transfers.

http://www.dpti.sa.gov.au/__data/assets ... _FINAL.pdf

I think this file may be what you are looking for. This appears to be part of the formal Business Case being prepared for the future expansion of the network and it does make for interesting reading.

Thanks that is interesting reading and highlights why we dont know too much about the city loop.

Personally was a likely eastlink user i liked the parade option only. ( i wouldn't be sending trams down magill). I firmly believe that would get the most down stream users (me for one).

As for the city loop id go with the East tce Hutt Street option