[U/C] M2 North-South Motorway

[SBD]

Why not build a tunnel all the way down cross road? Makes more sense and easily accessible to the north south motorway. We must have a better freeway/motorway system in Adelaide which will require spending big to get us moving. Fat too many traffic lights in Adelaide which holds up traffic. The ANZAC highway/south road interchange could be done in a way where there is no traffic lights but on/off ramps which will. Benefit both ANZAC highway getting that moving and the north south motorway.

What would be the conditions needed for a road tunnel below private property (instead of confined to road reserves)?

Drill a tunnel through the hill from the lower arrestor bed on the South Eastern Freeway, to come out on the North South Motorway on the vacant land near Ackland Street, perhaps with incentives for Olympic Industries and Parmalat to find new sites. there aren't many dairies in that part of Adelaide any more.

[Norman]

I'm not sure I buy the argument that we're going to need more big roads in the future to cope with increased congestion. In fact I would say there is a strong argument that we're approaching peak congestion with the rapidly impending semi-automation and eventual full-automation of vehicles. Especially here in Adelaide with our low population growth and our lack of anything approaching significant traffic problems on a global or even a national scale.

Many of our arterial roads are already three lanes in each direction which is significantly bigger than those found in many much larger cities around the world, especially in Europe. Automation should enable traffic to flow much more freely with this existing capacity, even with the same number of intersections as we have now. We'll just be using them smarter.

I don't anticipate we'll see much in the way of major new/significantly upgraded inner metropolitan roads after the NS motorway is complete - except, potentially, for a link to the SE Freeway. We're realistically talking a couple of decades at an absolute minimum to get those finished by which point automation will be far more advanced than it is now as will other transportation modes such as air-based ride sharing.

I'd expect to see some fiddling around with troublesome intersections, better synchronisation of traffic signals, continued grade separation of public transport and that's about it.

Absolutely correct. There is no way Adelaide's roads experience anything close to the level of congestion in cities like Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane. Any future freight route from Murray Bridge and the Adelaide Hills is more likely to follow the "Globelink" route than any freeway under Cross Road. Remember, we are trying to get trucks OFF the freeway between Glen Osmond and Crafers as they are a major hazard on the down track.

[ralmin]

Drill a tunnel through the hill from the lower arrestor bed on the South Eastern Freeway, to come out on the North South Motorway on the vacant land near Ackland Street, perhaps with incentives for Olympic Industries and Parmalat to find new sites. there aren't many dairies in that part of Adelaide any more.

If a tunnel connection to the south-eastern freeway is required, it only needs to be 4 km long to get from the lower arrestor bed to Kays Road in Torrens Park, without passing under any houses at all. From there it can follow Springbank Road and Daws Road to the north-south motorway, taking advantage of the upgraded intersection at Goodwood Road. That said, I agree with the other posters that this isn't a priority as freight traffic should avoid the south-eastern freeway.

[SRW]

I don't see how freight can avoid the South Eastern Freeway? Won't there need to be a productive route to the airport too (that's at West Beach, not the Monarto fantasy)?

[claybro]

I'm not sure I buy the argument that we're going to need more big roads in the future to cope with increased congestion. In fact I would say there is a strong argument that we're approaching peak congestion with the rapidly impending semi-automation and eventual full-automation of vehicles. Especially here in Adelaide with our low population growth and our lack of anything approaching significant traffic problems on a global or even a national scale.

Many of our arterial roads are already three lanes in each direction which is significantly bigger than those found in many much larger cities around the world, especially in Europe. Automation should enable traffic to flow much more freely with this existing capacity, even with the same number of intersections as we have now. We'll just be using them smarter.

I don't anticipate we'll see much in the way of major new/significantly upgraded inner metropolitan roads after the NS motorway is complete - except, potentially, for a link to the SE Freeway. We're realistically talking a couple of decades at an absolute minimum to get those finished by which point automation will be far more advanced than it is now as will other transportation modes such as air-based ride sharing.

I'd expect to see some fiddling around with troublesome intersections, better synchronisation of traffic signals, continued grade separation of public transport and that's about it.

Absolutely correct. There is no way Adelaide's roads experience anything close to the level of congestion in cities like Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane. Any future freight route from Murray Bridge and the Adelaide Hills is more likely to follow the "Globelink" route than any freeway under Cross Road. Remember, we are trying to get trucks OFF the freeway between Glen Osmond and Crafers as they are a major hazard on the down track.

A couple of issues with these comments. Adelaide roads currently do not experience the congestion of the other capitals, due to its anaemic growth in the last 30 or so years. Had Adelaide grown at anywhere near the speed of the other cities, the current road network would be a disaster, holding the state back. In fact, even without obvious congestion, Adelaide arterial roads, experience some of the slowest travel times in Australia.Are we all happy for Adelaide just to stagnate? It is the lack of planning for growth, that has placed Adelaide at the bottom of performers in many measures for decades. As for automation, there are two thoughts on the progress of this. Although some experts assume traffic will decrease with autonomous vehicles, there is another train of thought that demand for high speed freeway style roads will actually increase as the autonomous vehicles will require this to reach their potential efficiency, particularly freight. Indeed even some large cities with massive public transport infrastructure, such as Tokyo, Singapore, already have extensive motorways, and are expanding freeways and tunnels to cope with ever increasing trade and traffic. Many more people will move to on demand smaller individual vehicles rather than pack in to crowded trains, so in fact, traffic may increase. God forbid a mining construction boom in SA's north, because to take advantage of this, companies scattered throughout Adelaide would be tooling up for this. It would make no sense in future, for components being transported from Melbourne, to go to a manufacturer in Lonsdale via the back of the hills, down to Regency park, and then south. There will be a direct link from the SE freeway, to the N/S motorway, and it is already under consideration. Current preferred option is Cross Road, and it will happen sooner or later, so dreaming about better traffic synchronisation, and a bit of road widening here and there is precisely what has held Adelaide back up to now.

[SRW]

I'm not sure I buy the argument that we're going to need more big roads in the future to cope with increased congestion. In fact I would say there is a strong argument that we're approaching peak congestion with the rapidly impending semi-automation and eventual full-automation of vehicles. Especially here in Adelaide with our low population growth and our lack of anything approaching significant traffic problems on a global or even a national scale.

Many of our arterial roads are already three lanes in each direction which is significantly bigger than those found in many much larger cities around the world, especially in Europe. Automation should enable traffic to flow much more freely with this existing capacity, even with the same number of intersections as we have now. We'll just be using them smarter.

I don't anticipate we'll see much in the way of major new/significantly upgraded inner metropolitan roads after the NS motorway is complete - except, potentially, for a link to the SE Freeway. We're realistically talking a couple of decades at an absolute minimum to get those finished by which point automation will be far more advanced than it is now as will other transportation modes such as air-based ride sharing.

I'd expect to see some fiddling around with troublesome intersections, better synchronisation of traffic signals, continued grade separation of public transport and that's about it.

Absolutely correct. There is no way Adelaide's roads experience anything close to the level of congestion in cities like Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane. Any future freight route from Murray Bridge and the Adelaide Hills is more likely to follow the "Globelink" route than any freeway under Cross Road. Remember, we are trying to get trucks OFF the freeway between Glen Osmond and Crafers as they are a major hazard on the down track.

A couple of issues with these comments. Adelaide roads currently do not experience the congestion of the other capitals, due to its anaemic growth in the last 30 or so years. Had Adelaide grown at anywhere near the speed of the other cities, the current road network would be a disaster, holding the state back. In fact, even without obvious congestion, Adelaide arterial roads, experience some of the slowest travel times in Australia.Are we all happy for Adelaide just to stagnate? It is the lack of planning for growth, that has placed Adelaide at the bottom of performers in many measures for decades. As for automation, there are two thoughts on the progress of this. Although some experts assume traffic will decrease with autonomous vehicles, there is another train of thought that demand for high speed freeway style roads will actually increase as the autonomous vehicles will require this to reach their potential efficiency, particularly freight. Indeed even some large cities with massive public transport infrastructure, such as Tokyo, Singapore, already have extensive motorways, and are expanding freeways and tunnels to cope with ever increasing trade and traffic. Many more people will move to on demand smaller individual vehicles rather than pack in to crowded trains, so in fact, traffic may increase. God forbid a mining construction boom in SA's north, because to take advantage of this, companies scattered throughout Adelaide would be tooling up for this. It would make no sense in future, for components being transported from Melbourne, to go to a manufacturer in Lonsdale via the back of the hills, down to Regency park, and then south. There will be a direct link from the SE freeway, to the N/S motorway, and it is already under consideration. Current preferred option is Cross Road, and it will happen sooner or later, so dreaming about better traffic synchronisation, and a bit of road widening here and there is precisely what has held Adelaide back up to now.

Agree with your points, but in particular the cautionary thoughts on vehicle automation. Going off topic, but it's not at all safe to assume that it'll lead to a decrease in traffic unless there is some compelling cost benefit or regulatory compulsion toward collaborative consumption. Otherwise it's more likely to induce demand as private vehicle use becomes ever more convenient, especially if people can just summon up a car at any moment or under secondment for passengerless errands. In that scenario, automated vehicles not only increase congestion but give urban sprawl a second lease on life.

[rev]

While our congestion isn't as bad as other cities, why wait until it is to do something about it?
It will inevitably get worse as the population grows. Even if self driving vehicles become a thing and replace every vehicle on the road, you still need adequate infrastructure to cope regardless of who, or what..is driving the vehicles.

We waited a few too many decades to actually address the South Road issue, and it's going to be another decade before it is fully addressed. And look at the head fuck it's been to get it done so far and the major head fuck coming up.

Portrush Road is a nightmare. Heavy vehicles and b double semis shouldn't be using that road, but that's the route that exists for them. So why keep it at some crappy suburban standard roadway? Why not link it with the SEF and the NSM & PREXY by turning it into a motorway and creating a ring route? That would actually do a lot to get heavy vehicles off more main arterial roads more often as they'll hop on the motorways to get from point A to point B across town instead of tearing up suburban roadways which for them would be more efficient as it would save time and their own maintenance/upkeep costs, and it would also ease the burden of road maintenance.

[Patrick_27]

I don't see how freight can avoid the South Eastern Freeway? Won't there need to be a productive route to the airport too (that's at West Beach, not the Monarto fantasy)?

I think it's more avoiding the lower end of the South Eastern Freeway, if trucks turn off at bypass that goes through Monarto (as the Libs promised), then it would avoid them taking the steep and troublesome descent towards Glen Osmond Road and then get them off Portrush Road which is another issue. In terms of getting freight to and fro the airport, where does air freight actually end up once it's off the plane? I know that mail ends up in the CBD, what else is there?

[Patrick_27]

Drill a tunnel through the hill from the lower arrestor bed on the South Eastern Freeway, to come out on the North South Motorway on the vacant land near Ackland Street, perhaps with incentives for Olympic Industries and Parmalat to find new sites. there aren't many dairies in that part of Adelaide any more.

If a tunnel connection to the south-eastern freeway is required, it only needs to be 4 km long to get from the lower arrestor bed to Kays Road in Torrens Park, without passing under any houses at all. From there it can follow Springbank Road and Daws Road to the north-south motorway, taking advantage of the upgraded intersection at Goodwood Road. That said, I agree with the other posters that this isn't a priority as freight traffic should avoid the south-eastern freeway.

This is probably the best idea yet. Because it factor in what was convenient about the MATS' Hills Freeway but buries is so that it doesn't cause issue for anyone. I think if our state government does tunnel the South Road sections being discussed, then it might be worth investing in our own boring equipment so that the cost unviability of projects like this and rail tunnels becomes less of a thing.

[rev]

I don't see how freight can avoid the South Eastern Freeway? Won't there need to be a productive route to the airport too (that's at West Beach, not the Monarto fantasy)?

I think it's more avoiding the lower end of the South Eastern Freeway, if trucks turn off at bypass that goes through Monarto (as the Libs promised), then it would avoid them taking the steep and troublesome descent towards Glen Osmond Road and then get them off Portrush Road which is another issue. In terms of getting freight to and fro the airport, where does air freight actually end up once it's off the plane? I know that mail ends up in the CBD, what else is there?

Air freight here is so minimal it's not even worth taking into consideration for a pie in the sky project like a freight airport at Monarto.
As for the dangers of trucks on the SEF, why don't they actually look at fixing it? if they're going to blow a couple billion building a new freeway from Monarto to wherever, why not a tunnel, around 4-6km in length, that goes from the toll gate to the first bridge after the Heysen tunnels or even west just before Crafers? It would be a relatively straight stretch, and surely the gradient of the descent would be much more suitable and safer for heavy vehicles..?

[SBD]

I don't see how freight can avoid the South Eastern Freeway? Won't there need to be a productive route to the airport too (that's at West Beach, not the Monarto fantasy)?

I think it's more avoiding the lower end of the South Eastern Freeway, if trucks turn off at bypass that goes through Monarto (as the Libs promised), then it would avoid them taking the steep and troublesome descent towards Glen Osmond Road and then get them off Portrush Road which is another issue. In terms of getting freight to and fro the airport, where does air freight actually end up once it's off the plane? I know that mail ends up in the CBD, what else is there?

Air freight here is so minimal it's not even worth taking into consideration for a pie in the sky project like a freight airport at Monarto.
As for the dangers of trucks on the SEF, why don't they actually look at fixing it? if they're going to blow a couple billion building a new freeway from Monarto to wherever, why not a tunnel, around 4-6km in length, that goes from the toll gate to the first bridge after the Heysen tunnels or even west just before Crafers? It would be a relatively straight stretch, and surely the gradient of the descent would be much more suitable and safer for heavy vehicles..?

The current problem was created by turning a winding road with little uphill bits into a smooth, straight, continuously downhill road from Crafers to Glen Osmond. Making it even straighter and shorter cannot make it less steep unless the eastern portal is well past the crest of the hill.

Going uphill, the first significant lefthand bend is about 200m altitude according to Google Maps, in the same place as the sketch above proposes a tunnel towards the North South Motorway. The Measdays Hill bridge looks to be around 500m and the top of the hill about 560. It gets back below 500m about Old Carey Gully Road and below 400m just before Verdun. It doesn't get below 300m again until after passing Mount Barker Summit.

The value of GlobeLink in my mind is initially the railway detour away from the steep and constrained hills and suburbs corridor. The freeway is a bonus, but a Truro bypass would be beneficial early to get the grain freight out of that town now that it is on B-doubles and road trains instead of railway trains.

[Listy]

As for automation, there are two thoughts on the progress of this. Although some experts assume traffic will decrease with autonomous vehicles, there is another train of thought that demand for high speed freeway style roads will actually increase as the autonomous vehicles will require this to reach their potential efficiency, particularly freight. Indeed even some large cities with massive public transport infrastructure, such as Tokyo, Singapore, already have extensive motorways, and are expanding freeways and tunnels to cope with ever increasing trade and traffic. Many more people will move to on demand smaller individual vehicles rather than pack in to crowded trains, so in fact, traffic may increase.

On top of that, what happens to congestion when people commuting to work realise its cheaper to send their AI controlled car home for the day & then summon it back at about 4pm rather than pay for a parking spot in the CBD. Or when people just let their cars aimlessly drive around for an hour or two while they do the shopping, or attend a meeting at a clients worksite (etc etc) because they cant find an easy park or it's too expensive. Imagine being stuck in a traffic jam surrounded by completely empty cars!

[Llessur2002]

I'd still question the point of spending $billions now to solve a problem that is quite likely to not exist in the future. I'd bet good money that the pace of population growth and traffic congestion in Adelaide will not outpace technology-based solutions to mass people movement which don't require the extensive freeway networks that people thought necessary back in the 50s. I still reckon that the NS motorway and, slightly less likely, a link to the SE freeway will be the last freeway-style roads inner metropolitan Adelaide sees.

[rev]

I'd still question the point of spending $billions now to solve a problem that is quite likely to not exist in the future. I'd bet good money that the pace of population growth and traffic congestion in Adelaide will not outpace technology-based solutions to mass people movement which don't require the extensive freeway networks that people thought necessary back in the 50s. I still reckon that the NS motorway and, slightly less likely, a link to the SE freeway will be the last freeway-style roads inner metropolitan Adelaide sees.

But why wont the problem exist? By hoping that a technological solution is found? By this logic, we are wasting billions on the NSM and have wasted billions on other motorways/freeways already.

Even if all the vehicles on the road are driverless smart vehicles one day in the next 100 years and all signaled intersections are synced perfectly, that still wont solve the problem.
You still need better roads, and a network of motorways/a ring route particularly for freight and goods. It doesn't matter who or what is in control of the vehicles, they still need the proper infrastructure to get around. There wont be a net reduction in vehicles on our roads even if they are all driverless, because a change in who/what is driving wont change the requirements people have.

It's what gets done the world over. Even developing countries build this infrastructure. But for some reason many here think that we don't need this infrastructure, that somehow somewhere someone will come up with some alternative.

We didn't get on with building this necessary infrastructure decades ago when other cities were doing it, the locals thought they knew better, and we've paid the price ever since.

[ChillyPhilly]

Call me daft, but somehow I just can't see driverless cars being a big thing for many decades yet.