News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

[EBG]

There is no physical sign of any work on the rail link to FMC as of yesterday 25/7/2018. Does any one know of when this work is to start?

[Llessur2002]

Continued from the Port Dock spur thread to avoid going too far off-topic...

I'd favour keeping Port Dock/Outer Harbour and closing Grnage. If I recall correctly, patronage on the Grange line isn't that great?

I remember reading somewhere that patronage on the 3 stations of the Grange line is around 1000 ppl/day (weekdays). Can someone confirm this? If true, it's really insufficient to sustain a train line and should be closed.

What we should do, is build a new rail spur line to West Lakes, and integrate this with the existing West Lakes bus interchange. Therefore this can become the major bus/rail interchange for the north-western suburbs. This would have patronage many multiples of the Grange line the moment. With decent pedestrian connections to Westfield West Lakes. Something similar to the TTP Obahn interchange (sorry for getting off topic).

This is actually what was planned as part of the rail options for the northwest corridor under the previous government. Most options presented were for light rail though, which would have made the inclusion of the West Lakes spur easier. Because of the dithering over many years, momentum has now been lost, and now with the government change, we can forget light rail, and possible the grange line altogether. At best, I think we may get an electrified version of the current setup, but there is no way a heavy rail spur would be run down the middle of West Lakes boulevard as it did in the past, because of all the new housing along there, and the problems with running heavy rail with traffic, and how to integrate heavy rail into the car park/bus interchange area at West Lakes Mall.

It's a shame that this wasn't thought out a little more before all of the housing construction started. I think there is room for the line to run above ground on/beside West Lakes Boulevard between the existing Grange line and Tapley's Hill Road (this is largely industrial land with no housing fronting onto the road here) before entering a 1.7km cut and cover tunnel which would follow the alignment of WLB terminating just to the east of West Lakes shopping centre - there is plenty of room to build a station just to the north of the AAMI Stadium.

We've just proved we can do this successfully with the o-bahn - it would be an expensive project (presumably less so if this remained a single-track spur) but I believe well worth it in the long run given the proposed high-density of this area and the presence of a large shopping centre.

[Raider]

If you're going to build a tunnel up there why not make it longer and more direct, starting it before Port Road. There could also then be a new underground Albert Park station near Tapleys Hill Road. We should be trying to remove as many level crossings as possible in the metro area and allow the trains to travel faster.

[Llessur2002]

If you're going to build a tunnel up there why not make it longer and more direct, starting it before Port Road. There could also then be a new underground Albert Park station near Tapleys Hill Road. We should be trying to remove as many level crossings as possible in the metro area and allow the trains to travel faster.

That would be great, but the cost would obviously be significantly higher as you'd be at least doubling the length of tunnel. Either way I doubt we'll ever see this happen.

[dbl96]

If you're going to build a tunnel up there why not make it longer and more direct, starting it before Port Road. There could also then be a new underground Albert Park station near Tapleys Hill Road. We should be trying to remove as many level crossings as possible in the metro area and allow the trains to travel faster.

Because then it could no longer be a cut and cover tunnel. A bored tunnel would be required, which would be much more expensive.

And underground stations are particularly expensive, especially when they are on bored tunnels. That's why the Melbourne Metro stupidly won't have an interchange at South Yarra.

[claybro]

If you're going to build a tunnel up there why not make it longer and more direct, starting it before Port Road. There could also then be a new underground Albert Park station near Tapleys Hill Road. We should be trying to remove as many level crossings as possible in the metro area and allow the trains to travel faster.

Because then it could no longer be a cut and cover tunnel. A bored tunnel would be required, which would be much more expensive.

And underground stations are particularly expensive, especially when they are on bored tunnels. That's why the Melbourne Metro stupidly won't have an interchange at South Yarra.

All of this expense, and work arounds for what is a short section of line, is why most previous options favoured light rail for the whole corridor, as the same issues will prevent heavy rail being re-introduced to Semaphore road. It is just not feasible now to have heavy rail road running as they used t in the 50's. A dual mode corridor proved too complicated and at the point everyone poo poohed conversion of OH to light rail, and the government lost interest, the spur to West Lakes, Semaphore and indeed the grange line itself were probably consigned to the dust bin. The Port Dock heavy rail spur also added to the confusion by the previous state government. At best, we can hope for electrification of OH and the Port Spur, and a few tarted up stations.

[1NEEDS2POST]

Building another spur from the Grange line will lower the frequency of trains. Trains from the city to Woodville would then have four different routes for the end of their journey.

In my opinion, the game changer for trains will be automation. Forget driverless cars, driverless trains is a technology that already exists. With unattended train operation (UTO), you can run trains at high frequency without hiring more drivers. That's what happens with the Vancouver SkyTrain, where trains come very frequently, almost 24/7. The only railways with UTO are grade separated, which Adelaide is slowly achieving.

If we get UTO, spurs will start to make sense because they can be served at a reasonable frequency.

[ml69]

It's a shame that this wasn't thought out a little more before all of the housing construction started. I think there is room for the line to run above ground on/beside West Lakes Boulevard between the existing Grange line and Tapley's Hill Road (this is largely industrial land with no housing fronting onto the road here) before entering a 1.7km cut and cover tunnel which would follow the alignment of WLB terminating just to the east of West Lakes shopping centre - there is plenty of room to build a station just to the north of the AAMI Stadium.

We've just proved we can do this successfully with the o-bahn - it would be an expensive project (presumably less so if this remained a single-track spur) but I believe well worth it in the long run given the proposed high-density of this area and the presence of a large shopping centre.

I had almost the exact same thoughts and route for a heavy rail line Llessur2002. It needs to be heavy rail so that you can just take one train into the CBD, as many people will have already taken a bus to the West Lakes bus/train interchange.

However in my route the section between Tapleys Hill Rd and Frederick Rd would be at ground level running in the existing planted strip on the southern side of West Lakes Blvd. A protective acoustic wall could be erected to shield South Parade residents from train noise.

Just before Frederick Rd, the rail line would dive into a cut and cover tunnel for the final 800m or so (like your proposal), terminating in an open trench interchange station just east of Turner Dr.

Such a scheme would support the high density residential of the immediate surrounding area, as well as the shopping centre and proposed commercial developments adjacent to Turner Dr.

[PeFe]

Turn the Grange line into light rail terminating at Woodville (interchange with heavy rail) and then extend it down to Henley Square.

Same for West Lakes Boulevard (light rail)...and as I have stated before on these forums West lakes Boulevard was built with the intention of running a train line down the centre but the shopping centre owners vehemently opposed it.

Neither Grange nor West Lakes have the passenger numbers to justify anything more than light rail.

[SBD]

I believe the blue part of your map is the original Hendon railway line, opened 1940 to provide worker s and remove produce from the munitions factories. The factories were repurposed after world war 2, and the passenger service eventually stopped in 1980.

[Waewick]

Turn the Grange line into light rail terminating at Woodville (interchange with heavy rail) and then extend it down to Henley Square.

Same for West Lakes Boulevard (light rail)...and as I have stated before on these forums West lakes Boulevard was built with the intention of running a train line down the centre but the shopping centre owners vehemently opposed it.

Neither Grange nor West Lakes have the passenger numbers to justify anything more than light rail.

Why did shopping centre owners not want a train near there centre?

This is the problem with consultative politicians.

[rubberman]

Turn the Grange line into light rail terminating at Woodville (interchange with heavy rail) and then extend it down to Henley Square.

Same for West Lakes Boulevard (light rail)...and as I have stated before on these forums West lakes Boulevard was built with the intention of running a train line down the centre but the shopping centre owners vehemently opposed it.

Neither Grange nor West Lakes have the passenger numbers to justify anything more than light rail.

Why did shopping centre owners not want a train near there centre?

This is the problem with consultative politicians.

Maybe, and I am guessing here, they thought that commuters would end up using the car park. That would reduce shopper car parks.

If that is the case, I imagine that an underground rail would have the same objection.

As for consultative politicians, I can't imagine the extension as heavy rail would have been economic, so some "consultation" that enabled the West Lakes Mall take the blame is good politics. A lot of people don't care about economics. They want something, be that a train or a tram or a new freeway, or the airport shifted. They simply will not accept bad economics as a reason why they can't have something, and off they go campaigning for years. This means politicians are getting grief for years over things that cannot be justified economically vs other projects. However, if they "consult" and have a major opposing factor, like the West Lakes Mall, politicians can sigh dramatically and say it's not their fault.

That doesn't mean that people here can't dream. However, unless such dreams address the cost issues, or obvious objections of stakeholders, they aren't going to happen, realistically.

[PeFe]

I have tried internet searches looking for newspaper articles from the time but no luck.

As well as the shopping centre owners, I believe Delfin (the builders of West Lakes) were also opposed. It was the mid 70's and the car was king and West Lakes was going to be an "upmarket" suburb, no need for good public transport for "losers who can't afford a car and shouldn't be living in West Lakes in the first place"

[ml69]

I have tried internet searches looking for newspaper articles from the time but no luck.

As well as the shopping centre owners, I believe Delfin (the builders of West Lakes) were also opposed. It was the mid 70's and the car was king and West Lakes was going to be an "upmarket" suburb, no need for good public transport for "losers who can't afford a car and shouldn't be living in West Lakes in the first place"

Ok that was the thinking back in the 1970's. Nowadays the thinking is different. Westfield have plenty of shopping centres (TTP in Adelaide and many interstate) which are well-served by public transport.

West Lakes is the logical transit hub of the north-western suburbs. It has the regional shopping centre, there's already a bus interchange and now there is high density residential being built right next to it.

West Lakes has TOD written all over written it. It just needs a suitable high-speed transit link to the city.

[PeFe]

Port Adelaide is the natural (and in future the real) regional centre of Adelaide's north western suburbs..............it's got the heart and the soul...but more importantly, it's got the pubs !!!

West Lakes has had the money, but that has changed (just look at the house prices in Semaphore and Largs Bay for example)
Gentrification is a powerful social tool and the suburbs next to the beaches have surely felt it, but next is the inland....like Port Adelaide.

And yes, tram to West Lakes, 1970's development re-imagined as a medium rise area connectd with good public transport.........now that wasn't on the 70's agenda !!