News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

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claybro
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#3691 Post by claybro » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:46 pm

ml69 wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:18 am
victorious80 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:36 am
Re the need to upgrade rail network...about the same number of people use Adelaide's current rail network per day as those driving on South Rd, but I am fairly sure more has been spent on upgrading South Rd over past decade (and prob will be into the future). Not that I want to start a debate on rail vs road, as they both have their use and South Rd certainly needs an upgrade, but we need to be careful in saying that patronage on trains is low and therefore rail doesn't warrant more funding. The fact is that the current rail network is less than great when compared to other networks in Aus and the world, yet there are over 14m rail trips annually. So people are using it. Yes the usage is low compared to other modes of transport, but the only way to increase usage is to improve the network. I don't commute on the trains myself (cycling and buses are more convenient where I live) but I would be happy for my tax dollars to go into upgrading a service that directly benefits many, and also has the advantage of decreasing road traffic and therefore helping those who use the road.
You only need to look at Auckland rail patronage growth as an example of what can happen once there is:
(a) conveniently-located CBD station
(b) electrification
(c) suburban interchange improvements

Now they are building a CBD rail tunnel and new CBD stations which will send patronage skyrocketing even further. https://www.cityraillink.co.nz

And they have seen massive patronage growth using their existing 3 line system (no new lines, and smaller overall system than Adelaide).

There are many lessons for us to learn in Adelaide.
Agree with this all of this, and it surprises me that people seem miffed we haven't seen a dramatic increase in rail use in Adelaide despite the money already spent. In reality all we have done in put some new trains and electric wires along 1 line so far, and upgraded a handful of stations. Hardly inspirational. And now we have completely lost momentum, and probably expertise again. At the very least, finish electrification of the other lines, and upgrade ALL stations, cull/relocate some, and introduce major interchange points to stop duplication with bus express services-then plan for the underground loop. And speed it up! A trip on the Seaford line is barely different to that of 20 years ago on the slow diesel trains. Plan it over 20 years and allocate annual funding accordingly. It wont bankrupt the state at that pace, and commuters will get used to using trains and they will become more a part of Adelaides social fabric.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#3692 Post by Goodsy » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:10 pm

The CBD tunnel should be Adelaide's top priority right now IMO, higher than the trams. As well as standard gauge tracks being laid into Adelaide Station

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#3693 Post by Jaymz » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:33 pm

Goodsy wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:10 pm
The CBD tunnel should be Adelaide's top priority right now IMO, higher than the trams. As well as standard gauge tracks being laid into Adelaide Station
Yep. And I only speak personally here, the last 2 tram extensions (both more than walkable sections along visually pleasing backdrops) were a last ditch vote-grabbing ploy by the previous Govt, as light rail in the CBD always seems to be very popular.... even if has very little economic benefit. It's more window dressing than any dire need for improvement, unlike the northern train line which is a no brainer for me.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#3694 Post by claybro » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:06 pm

Goodsy wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:10 pm
The CBD tunnel should be Adelaide's top priority right now IMO, higher than the trams. As well as standard gauge tracks being laid into Adelaide Station
Its not quite that simple, because it has to be addressed as a whole of system approach. No point starting the loop, when we still have diesel railcars-they cant use the loop. The loop will also be partially wasted if all lines are not modified with upgrades to stations and construction of interchanges to speed the system up and make the trains more frequent. Given the available funds, electrification and line upgrades have to come first, then the loop.-The trams serve a very different purpose, and should be looked at from a local council point of view and funded accordingly, along with urban renewal projects. Councils and developers should be contributing substantially more than they do.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#3695 Post by Norman » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:30 pm

Unfortunately councils don't have the capital to initiate large scale urban renewal and infrastructure programs. Look how much the Adelaide City Council has to borrow for half of the Victoria Square upgrade, how much funding was given for bikeways and laneway upgades from the state government, and only the state government was able to put money in for the Bowden, Tonsley and Woodville West regeneration projects.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#3696 Post by 1NEEDS2POST » Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:49 am

Norman wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:57 am
However, as the electrification project has now been extended to Gawler, more new electric railcars will be required to keep the service as efficient as possible by not mixing fast, electric trains with slow diesel trains.
What makes you think the 3000 class railcars are slower than the 4000 class?
ml69 wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:18 am
victorious80 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:36 am
Re the need to upgrade rail network...about the same number of people use Adelaide's current rail network per day as those driving on South Rd, but I am fairly sure more has been spent on upgrading South Rd over past decade (and prob will be into the future). Not that I want to start a debate on rail vs road, as they both have their use and South Rd certainly needs an upgrade, but we need to be careful in saying that patronage on trains is low and therefore rail doesn't warrant more funding. The fact is that the current rail network is less than great when compared to other networks in Aus and the world, yet there are over 14m rail trips annually. So people are using it. Yes the usage is low compared to other modes of transport, but the only way to increase usage is to improve the network. I don't commute on the trains myself (cycling and buses are more convenient where I live) but I would be happy for my tax dollars to go into upgrading a service that directly benefits many, and also has the advantage of decreasing road traffic and therefore helping those who use the road.
You only need to look at Auckland rail patronage growth as an example of what can happen once there is:
(a) conveniently-located CBD station
(b) electrification
(c) suburban interchange improvements

Now they are building a CBD rail tunnel and new CBD stations which will send patronage skyrocketing even further. https://www.cityraillink.co.nz

And they have seen massive patronage growth using their existing 3 line system (no new lines, and smaller overall system than Adelaide).

There are many lessons for us to learn in Adelaide.
Auckland is a great example for Adelaide. One of my favourite public transport blogs recently wrote about their new network design. https://humantransit.org/2018/09/auckla ... plete.html

At one point, Auckland was going to order battery/overhead wire EMUs. They were going to electrify part of one railway line and run the EMUs on battery for the remainder of the line. That plan was replaced with electrifying the whole line. I think this idea has merit in Adelaide if the Barossa line reopens. Battery/overhead wire EMUs would run on the overhead wire to Gawler and then battery through the Barossa.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#3697 Post by PD2/20 » Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:09 am

1NEEDS2POST wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:49 am
Norman wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:57 am
However, as the electrification project has now been extended to Gawler, more new electric railcars will be required to keep the service as efficient as possible by not mixing fast, electric trains with slow diesel trains.
What makes you think the 3000 class railcars are slower than the 4000 class?
3000 class have max speed 90 whereas 4000 class have 110 max. The Seaford line has stretches of 110 running but has an number of speed restriction along its length at Goodwood, Emerson, Edwardstown, Hove, Brighton, Hallet Cove Beach, Lonsdale, Onkaparinga that restrict running speed in practice. Removing the restrictions would involve significant civil works.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#3698 Post by aaronjameslange » Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:39 am

PD2/20 wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:09 am
1NEEDS2POST wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:49 am
Norman wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:57 am
However, as the electrification project has now been extended to Gawler, more new electric railcars will be required to keep the service as efficient as possible by not mixing fast, electric trains with slow diesel trains.
What makes you think the 3000 class railcars are slower than the 4000 class?
3000 class have max speed 90 whereas 4000 class have 110 max. The Seaford line has stretches of 110 running but has an number of speed restriction along its length at Goodwood, Emerson, Edwardstown, Hove, Brighton, Hallet Cove Beach, Lonsdale, Onkaparinga that restrict running speed in practice. Removing the restrictions would involve significant civil works.
A mustang and a semi truck can both do 110 km/h, but put them both at a set of lights and who do you think will win? Top speed of a 3000/4000 railcar is not really relevant. When stops are so close together, acceleration has much more impact than top speed.

Oh and im currently on a 3000 railcar travelling 100km/h between mawson interchange and dry creek

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#3699 Post by ChillyPhilly » Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:07 pm

Tick tock.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#3700 Post by metro » Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:40 pm

I know right. Gawler electrification work began in 2012.

If only they'd just get on with it and put up the wires, like why can't they do it as quickly as Oaklands seems to be getting done? :roll:

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#3701 Post by OlympusAnt » Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:06 pm

It should have begun 30 years ago.
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#3702 Post by EBG » Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:57 am

It was supposed to start in 2008 and be finished in 2013

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#3703 Post by SBD » Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:41 pm

EBG wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:57 am
It was supposed to start in 2008 and be finished in 2013
From the Gawler Bunyip, 21 April 1950 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article96857317
Gawler Bunyip wrote: Move for Extension of Rail Electrification.
As far as Gawler?
At the instigation of the Salisbury Development Advisory Committee, Gawler and other Council bodies immediately north of Salisbury will meet next month to see what action can be taken to persuade the State Government to extend electrification of the railway system as far as Gawler.
At present the proposal is to electrify the system to Dry Creek.
That follows the Royal Commission on State Transport Services seeking advice in 1947. "Gawler's service, according to Cr. J.F. Power is 50 years behind the times." http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article96844238

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#3704 Post by ml69 » Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:55 pm

SBD wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:41 pm
From the Gawler Bunyip, 21 April 1950 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article96857317
Gawler Bunyip wrote: Move for Extension of Rail Electrification.
As far as Gawler?
At the instigation of the Salisbury Development Advisory Committee, Gawler and other Council bodies immediately north of Salisbury will meet next month to see what action can be taken to persuade the State Government to extend electrification of the railway system as far as Gawler.
At present the proposal is to electrify the system to Dry Creek.
That follows the Royal Commission on State Transport Services seeking advice in 1947. "Gawler's service, according to Cr. J.F. Power is 50 years behind the times." http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article96844238
Does that mean the Gawler line is now 121 years behind the times? :lol:

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#3705 Post by skyliner » Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:34 pm

You guys forgot the effort we made to electrify in 1973. Cables were seen in Islington yards. Then another effort around 1918 - the evidence wad the side loading dogboxes we got - each compartment had a door to the platfoms. All gone now - used o travel with the centenary cars in the 70's.

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