News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

[ml69]

There been plenty of talk The upcoming Federal budget in May will contain a lot of goodies for road and rail infrastructure.

What do people think is likely to be on offer to South Australia? It appears that there will be big dollars to Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane, but what about us?

I think we may get some (partial) funding to complete Gawler electrification all the way to Gawler. Seems rather silly to electrify half a rail line (to Salisbury).

Also possibly we may get some funding to complete the Regency Rd to Pym St "missing link" of the N/S Motorway. Don't think we will get anymore than that.

[SBD]

There been plenty of talk The upcoming Federal budget in May will contain a lot of goodies for road and rail infrastructure.

What do people think is likely to be on offer to South Australia? It appears that there will be big dollars to Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane, but what about us?

I think we may get some (partial) funding to complete Gawler electrification all the way to Gawler. Seems rather silly to electrify half a rail line (to Salisbury).

Also possibly we may get some funding to complete the Regency Rd to Pym St "missing link" of the N/S Motorway. Don't think we will get anymore than that.

The only "Project" (completed business case) on the Infrastructure Australia priority list for South Australia is the Eyre Infrastructure Project for Iron Road. I haven't worked out how much is to be government-funded and how much is private, but it involves a standard gauge railway from new iron ore mines near Wudinna to a new port at Cape Hardy. Both the railway and port are intended to be open access, and suitable for grain export as well as Iron from their own and other mines.

The only High Priority Initiative is the Gawler Rail line upgrade. Next steps: Business case development for Salisbury to Gawler section. Work on upgrading the line between Adelaide and Salisbury is set to commence in 2018.

There are two short-timeframe priority initiatives in SA - Strzelecki Track and the remaining sections of the north-south corridor: Anzac Highway to Darlington, River Torrens to Anzac Highway and Regency Park to Torrens Road.

Those seem like the easiest things to ask the Federal government for money to help with in the short term, as they are the things that have already been identified as important. Anything new needs not only the business case details to justify the spend, but also the higher-level argument to get on Infrastructure Australia's list at all!

Longer-term items on the Federal list are AdelLINK, regional mineral port (possibly this is the port component of Iron Road?), Sturt Highway upgrades including a Truro bypass, better rail access to the Gawler Craton and the Melbourne-Adelaide-Perth rail upgrade (part of which I think is being done now anyway).

There is no mention at present of road improvements near Port Wakefield, Swanport Bridge, level crossings in the metropolitan area, Dukes Highway or a freeway link of any kind between Glen Osmond (or Monarto) and Wingfield.

http://infrastructureaustralia.gov.au/projects/map/

[SRW]

The federal Coalition has shown willingness to overlook incomplete business cases when it suits them, such as with the $5 billion they've foreshadowed for a Tullamarine rail link.

[Goodsy]

not sure if this is the right place for this, but the DPTI has decided it's finally time to remove the old Northfield line level crossing from Churchill Road North

[SBD]

The federal Coalition has shown willingness to overlook incomplete business cases when it suits them, such as with the $5 billion they've foreshadowed for a Tullamarine rail link.

Yes, but I think it is more likely to overlook the business case development in cases where it suits the federal government to do so. In the Tullamarine case, it knws Victoria has a windfall of cash not yet allocated to anything else from the transfer of it share of the Snowy Mountains Scheme, and there is about to be a new suburb built on Federal Government land at Marybyrnong on its preferred route. A shiny new railway station will enhance the development value of its land.

The biggest question about the Gawler electrification project would be "how far?" I expect it is a one-shot go to extend the metropolitan network beyond Gawler Central to Kalbeeba or Lyndoch.

The business case must be fairly well advanced for the North-South corridor as a whole, so may not need much additional justification to complete the missing bits, it could be a question of quantifying the benefits and choosing the timing.

[[Shuz]]

I do recall quite some years ago there being a proposal for a housing development at Concordia that was part of the 30 Year Plan for Greater Adelaide that involved extending the railway line into the new housing development. Is this what you're alluding to in terms of the Gawler electrification project?

Turnbull has quite often spoken of 'value capture' from residential housing development and growth along rail corridors. It is pretty much a given that the Maribyrnong route (whether it goes through Flemington or Footscray, yet to be decided) will be chosen for the new Melbourne Airport rail link. I'm of the understanding that the housing development on the former defence land is not viable without the rail line through it.

[Nort]

The federal Coalition has shown willingness to overlook incomplete business cases when it suits them, such as with the $5 billion they've foreshadowed for a Tullamarine rail link.

Yes, but I think it is more likely to overlook the business case development in cases where it suits the federal government to do so. In the Tullamarine case, it knws Victoria has a windfall of cash not yet allocated to anything else from the transfer of it share of the Snowy Mountains Scheme, and there is about to be a new suburb built on Federal Government land at Marybyrnong on its preferred route. A shiny new railway station will enhance the development value of its land.

The biggest question about the Gawler electrification project would be "how far?" I expect it is a one-shot go to extend the metropolitan network beyond Gawler Central to Kalbeeba or Lyndoch.

The business case must be fairly well advanced for the North-South corridor as a whole, so may not need much additional justification to complete the missing bits, it could be a question of quantifying the benefits and choosing the timing.

If suburban Adelaide is going to continue to expand past Gawler then the train line should 100% be expanded to meet that development.

If the state can't afford that train line expansion then we probably can't afford the extra sprawl.

[Goodsy]

If the state can't afford that train line expansion then we probably can't afford the extra sprawl.

that's not how it works... train lines are no good if the people living in those new sprawling suburbs don't work anywhere near the line

[SBD]

If the state can't afford that train line expansion then we probably can't afford the extra sprawl.

that's not how it works... train lines are no good if the people living in those new sprawling suburbs don't work anywhere near the line

Does anyone know how to navigate the ABS or any other data sources to find what proportion of the workers who live in Salisbury, Playford, Gawler, Light and Barossa councils work south of Gepps Cross?

There used to be trains to Penfield and to Port Adelaide from the north, but these were stopped years ago. Perhaps if former Holden employees are being encouraged to seek work at Osborne, it might be time to revisit that decision. The Penfield line is gone, but the Dry Creek-Port Adelaide line still exists and was used to transport workers from the Port area to the "new" Holden factory at Elizabeth when it opened.

I said about extending Gawler Central services to Kalbeeba/Concordia or Lyndoch. I guess I also should have raised the possibility of extending Gawler services to Gawler Belt and Roseworthy.

[Nort]

If the state can't afford that train line expansion then we probably can't afford the extra sprawl.

that's not how it works... train lines are no good if the people living in those new sprawling suburbs don't work anywhere near the line

Chicken and egg. Having good public infrastructure encourages developments that take advantage of it.

[claybro]

If the state can't afford that train line expansion then we probably can't afford the extra sprawl.

that's not how it works... train lines are no good if the people living in those new sprawling suburbs don't work anywhere near the line

Chicken and egg. Having good public infrastructure encourages developments that take advantage of it.

Problem is, we don't have good PT especially rail in the already developed areas. Its a bit silly to extend to Aldinga or North of Gawler or wherever, when the existing lines are in a pretty ordinary state, and commuters don't really heavily use lines like OH anyway. I would much prefer to see money for the next few years spent on already existing rail infrastructure eg, electrify to Gawler, OH, Grange, finish the spur to Port Adelaide, create the Spur to West Lakes and upgrade ALL stations on the existing network. Create super stations with interchanges and high density housing and commercial precincts in areas like Edwardstown, Marion, Woodville etc. Only then should we look at extending the metropolitan lines, beyond the current boundaries. The super station re development precincts could help build a business case for upgrading the existing lines and stations by allowing for more population density and more diversity of employment in these locations. Port Adelaide and Mawson Lakes and the northern suburbs should be connected directly by rail using the already existing corridor.

[SBD]

that's not how it works... train lines are no good if the people living in those new sprawling suburbs don't work anywhere near the line

Chicken and egg. Having good public infrastructure encourages developments that take advantage of it.

Problem is, we don't have good PT especially rail in the already developed areas. Its a bit silly to extend to Aldinga or North of Gawler or wherever, when the existing lines are in a pretty ordinary state, and commuters don't really heavily use lines like OH anyway. I would much prefer to see money for the next few years spent on already existing rail infrastructure eg, electrify to Gawler, OH, Grange, finish the spur to Port Adelaide, create the Spur to West Lakes and upgrade ALL stations on the existing network. Create super stations with interchanges and high density housing and commercial precincts in areas like Edwardstown, Marion, Woodville etc. Only then should we look at extending the metropolitan lines, beyond the current boundaries. The super station re development precincts could help build a business case for upgrading the existing lines and stations by allowing for more population density and more diversity of employment in these locations. Port Adelaide and Mawson Lakes and the northern suburbs should be connected directly by rail using the already existing corridor.

It is highly unlikely that the electrified network would be extended anywhere that does not currently have rail service for a very long time. I'd say that the work to electrify to Gawler has to go to Gawler Central, and if it is going to go further in the next fifty years, has to go to Concordia/Kalbeeba/Sandy Creek, Roseworthy, or both at the same time as it is done to Gawler. It could still be built in stages (Salisbury, then Elizabeth, then Gawler, then any extra bits, but it has to be done as a single phased contract for the whole project or the last bits will fall out of favour.

I guess it could be announced as a "continuous build" series of projects. Salisbury, Port Dock, Elizabeth, Grange, Gawler, Outer Harbor, Gawler East/Kalbeeba (extends from Gawler Central), Belair, Roseworthy. That gives time before work starts on Belair to have decided if the standard gauge might be rerouted soon after, but hopefully allows for all of the metro lines to be electrified before the 3000 class railcars need to be replaced with new diesels.

Does SA have the in-state capacity to be working on more than one rail project at a time (metro rail, trams and any regional rail upgrade projects, plus Iron Road).

[ml69]

Problem is, we don't have good PT especially rail in the already developed areas. Its a bit silly to extend to Aldinga or North of Gawler or wherever, when the existing lines are in a pretty ordinary state, and commuters don't really heavily use lines like OH anyway. I would much prefer to see money for the next few years spent on already existing rail infrastructure eg, electrify to Gawler, OH, Grange, finish the spur to Port Adelaide, create the Spur to West Lakes and upgrade ALL stations on the existing network. Create super stations with interchanges and high density housing and commercial precincts in areas like Edwardstown, Marion, Woodville etc. Only then should we look at extending the metropolitan lines, beyond the current boundaries. The super station re development precincts could help build a business case for upgrading the existing lines and stations by allowing for more population density and more diversity of employment in these locations. Port Adelaide and Mawson Lakes and the northern suburbs should be connected directly by rail using the already existing corridor.

Whoa .... slow down .... you're making way too much sense!

Agree with absolutely everything you've said, with the exception of Grange electrification. Being (by far) the least used line on the current rail network, I think this line should be closed down and replaced with the West Lakes spur. Build a big park and ride at West Lakes ... no reason why this wouldn't be immensely popular.

Then the next stage would be to link all the electrified lines together with an underground CBD rail loop (long-term, I know).

[Nort]

that's not how it works... train lines are no good if the people living in those new sprawling suburbs don't work anywhere near the line

Chicken and egg. Having good public infrastructure encourages developments that take advantage of it.

Problem is, we don't have good PT especially rail in the already developed areas. Its a bit silly to extend to Aldinga or North of Gawler or wherever, when the existing lines are in a pretty ordinary state, and commuters don't really heavily use lines like OH anyway. I would much prefer to see money for the next few years spent on already existing rail infrastructure eg, electrify to Gawler, OH, Grange, finish the spur to Port Adelaide, create the Spur to West Lakes and upgrade ALL stations on the existing network. Create super stations with interchanges and high density housing and commercial precincts in areas like Edwardstown, Marion, Woodville etc. Only then should we look at extending the metropolitan lines, beyond the current boundaries. The super station re development precincts could help build a business case for upgrading the existing lines and stations by allowing for more population density and more diversity of employment in these locations. Port Adelaide and Mawson Lakes and the northern suburbs should be connected directly by rail using the already existing corridor.

Seems like we are arguing the same thing from different directions, that sprawl is bad and needs to be contained.

[claybro]

Seems like we are arguing the same thing from different directions, that sprawl is bad and needs to be contained.

Some sprawl is inevitable as high density living does not suit everyone, nor is high density desirable in every location. I guess though my point is that we give way too much emphasis on developing the outer fringe, when inner areas are still way under developed, especially when it comes to our rail infrastructure and station precincts. Catch any train on the OH line outside of peak times, and there are probably more flies than people on board. By all means, allow some development around the nearby country locations, but it should not be the default choice for cheaper housing, encouraged by ever expanding train lines, when there is still so much to do on the existing network, with apparently very limited funds.