News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

[claybro]

Let's get the facts correct about the Glenelg tram being the most popular form of public transport in Adelaide, as the headline passenger figures are completely misleading. The 9.2M passengers includes all the free rides between the Entertainment Centre and South Tce, and the Brighton Rd to Moseley Square section at Glenelg. The number of "paying" commuters is a much smaller subset of the 9.2M passengers.

My guess is that the true number of paying commuters on the Glenelg tram wouldn't be far different to the Outer Harbor rail line. If someone has the actual annual passenger numbers, it would be great if you could provide this to verify.

I believe the information was obtained from ticket and card validating, and therefore the free riders in the city that only travel from terrace to terrace not validating on boarding were not included in these figures. However to be fair, it does not say specifically they are excluded...unless they did a headcount on the free travellers.

[Norman]

Let's get the facts correct about the Glenelg tram being the most popular form of public transport in Adelaide, as the headline passenger figures are completely misleading. The 9.2M passengers includes all the free rides between the Entertainment Centre and South Tce, and the Brighton Rd to Moseley Square section at Glenelg. The number of "paying" commuters is a much smaller subset of the 9.2M passengers.

My guess is that the true number of paying commuters on the Glenelg tram wouldn't be far different to the Outer Harbor rail line. If someone has the actual annual passenger numbers, it would be great if you could provide this to verify.

I believe the information was obtained from ticket and card validating, and therefore the free riders in the city that only travel from terrace to terrace not validating on boarding were not included in these figures. However to be fair, it does not say specifically they are excluded...unless they did a headcount on the free travellers.

The 9.2m passengers includes an estimation of free riders.

[Westside]

Has everyone on this forum lost their mind? I can tell you exactly what’s going to happen with the OH line in the next 20-years - nothing! No light rail, no electrification. Just things the way they are. Can we please stop dreaming of spur lines coming off every which way from this one line. Yes they may be nice, but none of them are anywhere near close to the top of any infrastructure wish list. As for the light v heavy rail debate, why does every lay person seem to be an expert on which option is best? The results are already in guys, it’s called the ITLUP report and it’s reasonably concise. The winner is: it depends. Convert to light rail - some win some lose. Electrify, some lose some win. Nothing new here.

Remember that economics and politics will play part here. A number of the comparisons on here seem to lump all upgrades into the same category. The cost of converting to light rail is going to be greatly more expensive than electrifying the existing rail line. String up some wires, new rolling stock, integrate into existing stables, done. Convert to light rail means all of the above plus rebuilding every station, plus a new place to store and maintain the new trams plus gauge conversion. Not a simple undertaking for a 21km line (+ 6 ish for the Grange line plus any others).

Then don’t get me started on the foolish idea of a tram line on a greenfield site - down Port Rd - when the Port rail line just a few hundred metres away is left under utilised. We may as well ask the Govt for a tram line to Glenelg via Anzac Hwy. See how well that is received!

The final point I want to make is on capacity. Already we are seeing overcrowding on the Glenelg tram. What happens if you try that on a line that is three times in length plus has a bunch of spur lines attached. While it would be great to see, the poor railway crossings between Woodville and the city would be closed more often than they are open! There are a number of different strategies to deal with this, I know, but I think a little less dreaming and some more sensible thinking and we may actually see some decent options on the table for this area.

Now, did someone say underground city train tunnel...

[ml69]

What we really need to see is an update to the ITLUP plan and a revised public transport strategy. ITLUP was published in 2013 (5 years ago) and the new Liberal government has all but abandoned the key feature of the plan, namely the expansion of the Adelaide tram network (TBC on the CBD tram loop).

So let's see what the revised strategy is, with some broad but realistic timeframes. And then we prepare the business cases for submission to Infrastructure Australia for federal funding support and budget and implement the plan over the next X years.

Perth have done the above with their METRONET plan. METRONET envisions a 72km expansion to the existing rail system. Importantly, they are actually funding it in their state budget papers, and have also done their homework so they are receiving billions from the federal government as well. Currently a brand new underground line to the airport is being built, due for completion in 2020. Adelaide should take a leaf out of their book.

My strategy:
Now til 2022 (next election): Electrify Gawler line. Sink rail line at Oaklands Park. Port Dock spur line and extend line to Flinders (all commenced or announced).

2022-2026: Electrify OH and Port Dock line, with rail extension to West Lakes. Close Grange line (might happen sooner now!). Rebuild new interchange station at Woodville, and sink rail line at Woodville Rd. Build CBD tram loop.

2026-2030: Golden Grove Obahn extension. Commence underground CBD rail link (for Seaford, Flinders, Gawler, Outer Harbor, Port Dock and West Lakes lines).

2030-2034: Build new interchange station at Castle Plaza, replacing the Edwardstown and Woodlands Pk stations. Sink rail line at Raglan Ave. Complete underground CBD rail link.

There's a lot to do, and I haven't even mentioned airport or eastern suburbs tram/BRT yet. I suspect my timeline is too ambitious ...

[Joelmark]

Has everyone on this forum lost their mind? I can tell you exactly what’s going to happen with the OH line in the next 20-years - nothing! No light rail, no electrification. Just things the way they are. Can we please stop dreaming of spur lines coming off every which way from this one line. Yes they may be nice, but none of them are anywhere near close to the top of any infrastructure wish list. As for the light v heavy rail debate, why does every lay person seem to be an expert on which option is best? The results are already in guys, it’s called the ITLUP report and it’s reasonably concise. The winner is: it depends. Convert to light rail - some win some lose. Electrify, some lose some win. Nothing new here.

Remember that economics and politics will play part here. A number of the comparisons on here seem to lump all upgrades into the same category. The cost of converting to light rail is going to be greatly more expensive than electrifying the existing rail line. String up some wires, new rolling stock, integrate into existing stables, done. Convert to light rail means all of the above plus rebuilding every station, plus a new place to store and maintain the new trams plus gauge conversion. Not a simple undertaking for a 21km line (+ 6 ish for the Grange line plus any others).

Then don’t get me started on the foolish idea of a tram line on a greenfield site - down Port Rd - when the Port rail line just a few hundred metres away is left under utilised. We may as well ask the Govt for a tram line to Glenelg via Anzac Hwy. See how well that is received!

The final point I want to make is on capacity. Already we are seeing overcrowding on the Glenelg tram. What happens if you try that on a line that is three times in length plus has a bunch of spur lines attached. While it would be great to see, the poor railway crossings between Woodville and the city would be closed more often than they are open! There are a number of different strategies to deal with this, I know, but I think a little less dreaming and some more sensible thinking and we may actually see some decent options on the table for this area.

Now, did someone say underground city train tunnel...

This. Probably forget about anything happening with the rail system - apart from the Gawler line electrification - under Marshall, Lucas, Knoll & co - they just aren't interested. The rail system was left to rot 1993-2002 under the last Liberal Govt. I wouldn't expect much more this time. It's going to be long three and a half years.

As mentioned here though sometime in the next 15 or 20 years something will need to be done with the Outer Harbor line, because the 3000 class rail car will be at the end of their lifespan. Belair might be ok with a few diesels a bit longer.

Sorry to be negative, and really hope I'm wrong. As Norman said back in March, I guess we all have to keep the pressure up - write, email, complete all the "consultations" about this and that...

[ChillyPhilly]

Has everyone on this forum lost their mind? I can tell you exactly what’s going to happen with the OH line in the next 20-years - nothing! No light rail, no electrification. Just things the way they are. Can we please stop dreaming of spur lines coming off every which way from this one line. Yes they may be nice, but none of them are anywhere near close to the top of any infrastructure wish list. As for the light v heavy rail debate, why does every lay person seem to be an expert on which option is best? The results are already in guys, it’s called the ITLUP report and it’s reasonably concise. The winner is: it depends. Convert to light rail - some win some lose. Electrify, some lose some win. Nothing new here.

Remember that economics and politics will play part here. A number of the comparisons on here seem to lump all upgrades into the same category. The cost of converting to light rail is going to be greatly more expensive than electrifying the existing rail line. String up some wires, new rolling stock, integrate into existing stables, done. Convert to light rail means all of the above plus rebuilding every station, plus a new place to store and maintain the new trams plus gauge conversion. Not a simple undertaking for a 21km line (+ 6 ish for the Grange line plus any others).

Then don’t get me started on the foolish idea of a tram line on a greenfield site - down Port Rd - when the Port rail line just a few hundred metres away is left under utilised. We may as well ask the Govt for a tram line to Glenelg via Anzac Hwy. See how well that is received!

The final point I want to make is on capacity. Already we are seeing overcrowding on the Glenelg tram. What happens if you try that on a line that is three times in length plus has a bunch of spur lines attached. While it would be great to see, the poor railway crossings between Woodville and the city would be closed more often than they are open! There are a number of different strategies to deal with this, I know, but I think a little less dreaming and some more sensible thinking and we may actually see some decent options on the table for this area.

Now, did someone say underground city train tunnel...

This. Probably forget about anything happening with the rail system - apart from the Gawler line electrification - under Marshall, Lucas, Knoll & co - they just aren't interested. The rail system was left to rot 1993-2002 under the last Liberal Govt. I wouldn't expect much more this time. It's going to be long three and a half years.

As mentioned here though sometime in the next 15 or 20 years something will need to be done with the Outer Harbor line, because the 3000 class rail car will be at the end of their lifespan. Belair might be ok with a few diesels a bit longer.

Sorry to be negative, and really hope I'm wrong. As Norman said back in March, I guess we all have to keep the pressure up - write, email, complete all the "consultations" about this and that...

I think we could do a better job at coming up with plans for public transport in SA than this already inept State Government. If we can't, I will eat fifty hats.

[rubberman]

Has everyone on this forum lost their mind? I can tell you exactly what’s going to happen with the OH line in the next 20-years - nothing! No light rail, no electrification. Just things the way they are. Can we please stop dreaming of spur lines coming off every which way from this one line. Yes they may be nice, but none of them are anywhere near close to the top of any infrastructure wish list. As for the light v heavy rail debate, why does every lay person seem to be an expert on which option is best? The results are already in guys, it’s called the ITLUP report and it’s reasonably concise. The winner is: it depends. Convert to light rail - some win some lose. Electrify, some lose some win. Nothing new here.

Remember that economics and politics will play part here. A number of the comparisons on here seem to lump all upgrades into the same category. The cost of converting to light rail is going to be greatly more expensive than electrifying the existing rail line. String up some wires, new rolling stock, integrate into existing stables, done. Convert to light rail means all of the above plus rebuilding every station, plus a new place to store and maintain the new trams plus gauge conversion. Not a simple undertaking for a 21km line (+ 6 ish for the Grange line plus any others).

Then don’t get me started on the foolish idea of a tram line on a greenfield site - down Port Rd - when the Port rail line just a few hundred metres away is left under utilised. We may as well ask the Govt for a tram line to Glenelg via Anzac Hwy. See how well that is received!

The final point I want to make is on capacity. Already we are seeing overcrowding on the Glenelg tram. What happens if you try that on a line that is three times in length plus has a bunch of spur lines attached. While it would be great to see, the poor railway crossings between Woodville and the city would be closed more often than they are open! There are a number of different strategies to deal with this, I know, but I think a little less dreaming and some more sensible thinking and we may actually see some decent options on the table for this area.

Now, did someone say underground city train tunnel...

It's been pointed out in this round of discussion that nothing will happen until the existing diesel railcars reach the end of their economic life. So, we realise we are just having a discussion here.

As far as the Glenelg line capacity is concerned, it is simply a matter of buying more trams as the patronage goes up. The present peak headway is something like seven minutes. You could double the number of trams easily. The only other thing would be that platforms would need doubling in length to allow two trams at once to load/unload. That's simple for traditional side tram stops, a nightmare requiring system shutdown for centre island stops. Genius.

[Eurostar]

Surrounding the Outer Harbor Line are new developments.

Dock One is proposing 750 townhouses/apartments. Many of those residents will catch the train to the City for say school, tafe, university, AFL matches at Adelaide Oval, Cricket at Adelaide Oval, or Boxing Day Sales etc. Many of those residents will be Port Adelaide Council ratepayers who will want Commercial Road to be tidied up, they will want to dine out at a restaurant, go to the malls for grocery.

The Port Dock Station will be close to the railway museum, aviation museum and maritime museum bringing in tourists.

St Clair will have thousands of residents, Woodville West development will have many residents also who will want to go to the City. There is room between Port Road and Seaton Park Station for a second track.

[Mpol03]

Agreed!

Colour me stupid but what is the Woodville West development? Is this the old St Clair sporting venue?

[Eurostar]

Agreed!

Colour me stupid but what is the Woodville West development? Is this the old St Clair sporting venue?

Woodville West as in the ex housing trust area by Albert Park railway station

[rev]

Agreed!

Colour me stupid but what is the Woodville West development? Is this the old St Clair sporting venue?

https://thesquareatwoodvillewest.com.au/

It's literally where West lakes Blvd meets Clarke Tce. It's nothing special. It just turned a bunch of old crappy trust houses into new houses and a couple multi-story apartment buildings. There's a thread about it somewhere on the forum.
St Clair is north-north east of Woodville West, and it's practically completed. There was a plan to "swap" the park on Woodville Road adjacent the train station with the new bigger park they've built inside St Clair, to build a Bowden style TOD development, but the local residents bitched and moaned until the government gave in. Just like they did with regards to the lucky horseshoe not being rebuilt at the St Clair town center.

[ChillyPhilly]

Agreed!

Colour me stupid but what is the Woodville West development? Is this the old St Clair sporting venue?

https://thesquareatwoodvillewest.com.au/

It's literally where West lakes Blvd meets Clarke Tce. It's nothing special. It just turned a bunch of old crappy trust houses into new houses and a couple multi-story apartment buildings. There's a thread about it somewhere on the forum.
St Clair is north-north east of Woodville West, and it's practically completed. There was a plan to "swap" the park on Woodville Road adjacent the train station with the new bigger park they've built inside St Clair, to build a Bowden style TOD development, but the local residents bitched and moaned until the government gave in. Just like they did with regards to the lucky horseshoe not being rebuilt at the St Clair town center.

To be fair, the proposed land swap was a terrible rip off for locals who did use St Clair Reserve. It seems less likely that the transit-oriented development will happen, but the unnecessary and dangerous road linking the St Clair residential development with Woodville Road is indeed happening, which is some very poor planning - and something residents advocated against.

[Mpol03]

I live near this so yes I know what you’re talking about. The apartments do look quite cheap when compared to St Claire. Could be worse and does add a density to the area.

[1NEEDS2POST]

Has everyone on this forum lost their mind? I can tell you exactly what’s going to happen with the OH line in the next 20-years - nothing! No light rail, no electrification. Just things the way they are.

I bet there will be a push for more level crossing removals. I predict within twenty years there will be no level crossings from Adelaide to Port Dock.

It also gives the opportunity to rebuild stations. Some stations have poor pedestrian access. If we want to talk about subways, many stations are in dire need of pedestrian subways. It's orders of magnitude less expensive to grade separate the pedestrians.

[Hooligan]

Has everyone on this forum lost their mind? I can tell you exactly what’s going to happen with the OH line in the next 20-years - nothing! No light rail, no electrification. Just things the way they are.

I bet there will be a push for more level crossing removals. I predict within twenty years there will be no level crossings from Adelaide to Port Dock.

It also gives the opportunity to rebuild stations. Some stations have poor pedestrian access. If we want to talk about subways, many stations are in dire need of pedestrian subways. It's orders of magnitude less expensive to grade separate the pedestrians.

We used to have numerous pedestrian subways at railway stations all over Adelaide, until they were all removed.