News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

[dbl96]

There's no way Islington would be scrapped, it services an expanding retail and soon to commence high density housing precinct. If anything Dudley Park could be scrapped, it is in a low density suburb, has no provision for bus connections, is not highly visible from any main road and serves no shpping or service precinct. So it is typical of many Adelaide suburban stations and demonstrates many of the problems with the current train system.

Dudley Park is actually already a node for densification - much more so than Islington currently. Dudley Park station is actually in Prospect, right next to Churchill Road, where the bulk of new suburban apartment construction is occurring. In fact, renaming it as Prospect would probably do great things to improve awareness of the station, its potential usefulness, and thereby increase patronage substantially.

[Eurostar]

There's no way Islington would be scrapped, it services an expanding retail and soon to commence high density housing precinct. If anything Dudley Park could be scrapped, it is in a low density suburb, has no provision for bus connections, is not highly visible from any main road and serves no shpping or service precinct. So it is typical of many Adelaide suburban stations and demonstrates many of the problems with the current train system.

Dudley Park is actually already a node for densification - much more so than Islington currently. Dudley Park station is actually in Prospect, right next to Churchill Road, where the bulk of new suburban apartment construction is occurring. In fact, renaming it as Prospect would probably do great things to improve awareness of the station, its potential usefulness, and thereby increase patronage substantially.

With the two big shopping centres on Churchill Road and more residents the current 235/238/239 setup should be looked into. Increase the frequency to every 10 minutes during the day on weekdays.

[dbl96]

There's no way Islington would be scrapped, it services an expanding retail and soon to commence high density housing precinct. If anything Dudley Park could be scrapped, it is in a low density suburb, has no provision for bus connections, is not highly visible from any main road and serves no shpping or service precinct. So it is typical of many Adelaide suburban stations and demonstrates many of the problems with the current train system.

Dudley Park is actually already a node for densification - much more so than Islington currently. Dudley Park station is actually in Prospect, right next to Churchill Road, where the bulk of new suburban apartment construction is occurring. In fact, renaming it as Prospect would probably do great things to improve awareness of the station, its potential usefulness, and thereby increase patronage substantially.

With the two big shopping centres on Churchill Road and more residents the current 235/238/239 setup should be looked into. Increase the frequency to every 10 minutes during the day on weekdays.

These bus services should really be reconfigured as feeder services for the railway line. The unnecessary duplication of the railway's services with regular buses running in parallel just a hundred metres away, but never interchanging, creates competition between modes within the public transport system, rather than allowing the different modes to complement and enhance each other.

[ml69]

Dudley Park is actually already a node for densification - much more so than Islington currently. Dudley Park station is actually in Prospect, right next to Churchill Road, where the bulk of new suburban apartment construction is occurring. In fact, renaming it as Prospect would probably do great things to improve awareness of the station, its potential usefulness, and thereby increase patronage substantially.

With the two big shopping centres on Churchill Road and more residents the current 235/238/239 setup should be looked into. Increase the frequency to every 10 minutes during the day on weekdays.

These bus services should really be reconfigured as feeder services for the railway line. The unnecessary duplication of the railway's services with regular buses running in parallel just a hundred metres away, but never interchanging, creates competition between modes within the public transport system, rather than allowing the different modes to complement and enhance each other.

Spot on dbl96.

However as Adelaide Railway Station is on the edge of the CBD, many locations within the CBD are quicker and more convenient on a bus (even though buses get caught in AM/PM peak traffic), hence these commuters will still choose the bus over the train.

The key to unlocking a more efficient transport system (ie train line supported by feeder buses) is an underground CBD loop with a centrally located station in the middle of the CBD. Until this exists, feeder buses won't really work.

In my opinion, the underground CBD rail link is THE key piece of public transport infrastructure that we need to create efficiency in both the train network AS WELL as the bus network.

I'm actually surprised there isn't more public discussion on this .... there's lots of talk about trams but this is far more transformational for our public transport system.

[PeFe]

However as Adelaide Railway Station is on the edge of the CBD, many locations within the CBD are quicker and more convenient on a bus (even though buses get caught in AM/PM peak traffic), hence these commuters will still choose the bus over the train.

Adelaide Railway Staion is not on the edge of the CBD (neither is it right in the middle, for that to happen it would need to be in the middle of Rundle Mall).

It is located near the main/shopping business area and in in fact the CBD is expanding westawards fom the station (new RAH, SAMHRI etc)

The idea that public transport can always take "right next door" to where you want to go is a fallacy. In large cities with great public transport like London and Paris, you still have to walk.

If I lived in the outer suburbs and had to choose between train and bus, train would win every time for me, even if I needed to make a transfer or walk in the CBD.

[rubberman]

With the two big shopping centres on Churchill Road and more residents the current 235/238/239 setup should be looked into. Increase the frequency to every 10 minutes during the day on weekdays.

These bus services should really be reconfigured as feeder services for the railway line. The unnecessary duplication of the railway's services with regular buses running in parallel just a hundred metres away, but never interchanging, creates competition between modes within the public transport system, rather than allowing the different modes to complement and enhance each other.

Spot on dbl96.

However as Adelaide Railway Station is on the edge of the CBD, many locations within the CBD are quicker and more convenient on a bus (even though buses get caught in AM/PM peak traffic), hence these commuters will still choose the bus over the train.

The key to unlocking a more efficient transport system (ie train line supported by feeder buses) is an underground CBD loop with a centrally located station in the middle of the CBD. Until this exists, feeder buses won't really work.

In my opinion, the underground CBD rail link is THE key piece of public transport infrastructure that we need to create efficiency in both the train network AS WELL as the bus network.

I'm actually surprised there isn't more public discussion on this .... there's lots of talk about trams but this is far more transformational for our public transport system.

A metro might be cheaper and cover more area.

[Aidan]

Adelaide Railway Staion is not on the edge of the CBD

Yes it is. Check the map - you'll find it's on the northern edge.

The idea that public transport can always take "right next door" to where you want to go is a fallacy. In large cities with great public transport like London and Paris, you still have to walk.

But you don't have to walk very far.

If I lived in the outer suburbs and had to choose between train and bus, train would win every time for me, even if I needed to make a transfer or walk in the CBD.

If you lived near a train station in the outer suburbs, I'm sure that would be true. Elsewhere it's less certain, as you'd already be on the bus. And the inconvenience means that many people decide to drive instead. It's no coincidence that proportion of people using public transport is much lower in the parts of the City that aren't near the station.

[Goodsy]

https://vimeo.com/25333898

If you want to listen to a good lecture on density, walkability and transportation.. skip to about 2:30

[dbl96]

Adelaide Railway Staion is not on the edge of the CBD

Yes it is. Check the map - you'll find it's on the northern edge.

The idea that public transport can always take "right next door" to where you want to go is a fallacy. In large cities with great public transport like London and Paris, you still have to walk.

But you don't have to walk very far.

If I lived in the outer suburbs and had to choose between train and bus, train would win every time for me, even if I needed to make a transfer or walk in the CBD.

If you lived near a train station in the outer suburbs, I'm sure that would be true. Elsewhere it's less certain, as you'd already be on the bus. And the inconvenience means that many people decide to drive instead. It's no coincidence that proportion of people using public transport is much lower in the parts of the City that aren't near the station.

Catching the train should be much faster than catching the bus, even for stations close to the city. The fact that this is often not the case is a testament to how unnecessarily slow our rail services are. Even on the electrified sections of the network, trains take much longer to accelerate and decelerate than on systems in other countries and even in other Australian cities.

I don't know if this is because of the nature of the train-sets (perhaps better designed for inter-urban services with long distances between stations, where rapid, metro-like acceleration/deceleration are not required), overly generous timetabling, overly conservative OH&S regulations, or just excessive concern for passenger comfort. In any case, the slow speed of the rail network relative to other modes is a major factor in the rail system's low patronage.

While an underground city loop could dramatically improve accessibility, another major factor in the convenience of public transport is it's speed. As has been raised elsewhere on the forums, this is not an issue limited to trains. Adelaide's buses and trams also operate noticeably slower than in other cities. In order to make public transport more attractive, the relevant authorities need to examine how the existing network could be made to operate faster.


There is a school of thought on this forum, that the solution to slow rail speeds is simply to drastically reduce the number of stations on the network. This is true to a certain extent. There are many stations which are unnecessarily close together and which prevent trains reaching higher speeds. However station reduction also needs to be balanced with accessibility. Transforming Adelaide's rail network into a Mandurah line-style commuter network with massive distances between stations would actually encourage suburbanisation and car-dependence in the suburbs. It would hinder densification and the creation of walkable neigbourhoods, because transport nodes would be much fewer, and most often no longer within walking distance.

Station reduction needs to be done in a way that does not leave massive gaps in the network. Stations should be roughly evenly spaced. It is excessive to suggest, as some people on this forum seem to do, that essentially all stations be closed between Adelaide and Mawson Lakes. While that would no doubt do something to improve commute times for travelers from the outer suburbs, it would substantially reduce accessibility and opportunities for sustainable infill densification in the inner suburbs.

Moderate station consolidation (particularly on the Outer Harbour and Seaford lines, where station spacing is closer) should be pursued in connection with other means of increasing the actual speed of travel between stations. There is no reason why this could not be accomplished. Station distances in inner Melbourne and Sydney, and on metro systems throughout the world are at least as close as Adelaide's, yet much faster speeds and faster rates of acceleration/deceleration are achieved, making such rail systems much more attractive to passengers.

[Eurostar]

What also needs to happen is a third track to allow both express suburban trains to run and regional trains to Nuriootpa via Lyndoch and Tanunda

[dbl96]

What also needs to happen is a third track to allow both express suburban trains to run and regional trains to Nuriootpa via Lyndoch and Tanunda

There already is a third track between Adelaide and Salisbury (the standard gauge freight line). If the Adelaide network was standardised (quite a simple procedure, seeing as gauge convertible sleepers are already in place), express and regional trains could use this line.

[PeFe]

Catching the train should be much faster than catching the bus, even for stations close to the city. The fact that this is often not the case is a testament to how unnecessarily slow our rail services are.

And where is it fater to catch a bus to the city than catching the train? Bowden???..no,Millswood, no.....Ovingham, no..etc, etc

When I was staying at my parents house in Malvern I had the choice late at night to catch the last bus or train....train from city to Unley Park 12 minutes or bus along Unley Road 20 minutes (late at night with no traffic and hardly any passengers)

In any case, the slow speed of the rail network relative to other modes is a major factor in the rail system's low patronage.

Uh, so other modes of transport are faster? Try catching a bus from North Terrace to Seaford or Elizabeth.
Yes the Belair line is slower...but thats because it winds its way around the hills, a legacy route from 100 years ago.....it if was built today it would not be built that way.

Even on the electrified sections of the network, trains take much longer to accelerate and decelerate than on systems in other countries and even in other Australian cities.

Who says...what source can you quote?

Adelaide's buses and trams also operate noticeably slower than in other cities.

Who says Adelaide buses are noticably slower than other cities?
The tram yes because it doesn't have traffic light priority in the CBD (going against best operational practice for trams, especially in Europe)

And whilst we are all playing armchair experts here is an old thread I started years ago after holidaying in the USA.
I discuss my observations of the Los Angeles and Portland light rail systems and their relevance to Adelaide. Yes its from 2013, but the discussion still resonates today.

http://www.sensational-adelaide.com/for ... =18&t=4804

[ml69]

While an underground city loop could dramatically improve accessibility, another major factor in the convenience of public transport is it's speed. As has been raised elsewhere on the forums, this is not an issue limited to trains. Adelaide's buses and trams also operate noticeably slower than in other cities. In order to make public transport more attractive, the relevant authorities need to examine how the existing network could be made to operate faster.

It's weird isn't it ... why is the Obahn the only mode of public transport that is allowed to operate fast? I know it has large distances between stops. Also has the highest patronage. Coincidence?

[PeFe]

[It's weird isn't it ... why is the Obahn the only mode of public transport that is allowed to operate fast? I know it has large distances between stops. Also has the highest patronage. Coincidence?

And the answer is..........reduce the number of train stations and the trains will speed up!

And have you never been on a Seaford train express Woodlands Park to the city???
Is that not a fast public transport service??

[rubberman]

Catching the train should be much faster than catching the bus, even for stations close to the city. The fact that this is often not the case is a testament to how unnecessarily slow our rail services are.

And where is it fater to catch a bus to the city than catching the train? Bowden???..no,Millswood, no.....Ovingham, no..etc, etc

When I was staying at my parents house in Malvern I had the choice late at night to catch the last bus or train....train from city to Unley Park 12 minutes or bus along Unley Road 20 minutes (late at night with no traffic and hardly any passengers)

In any case, the slow speed of the rail network relative to other modes is a major factor in the rail system's low patronage.

Uh, so other modes of transport are faster? Try catching a bus from North Terrace to Seaford or Elizabeth.
Yes the Belair line is slower...but thats because it winds its way around the hills, a legacy route from 100 years ago.....it if was built today it would not be built that way.

Even on the electrified sections of the network, trains take much longer to accelerate and decelerate than on systems in other countries and even in other Australian cities.

Who says...what source can you quote?

Adelaide's buses and trams also operate noticeably slower than in other cities.

Who says Adelaide buses are noticably slower than other cities?
The tram yes because it doesn't have traffic light priority in the CBD (going against best operational practice for trams, especially in Europe)

And whilst we are all playing armchair experts here is an old thread I started years ago after holidaying in the USA.
I discuss my observations of the Los Angeles and Portland light rail systems and their relevance to Adelaide. Yes its from 2013, but the discussion still resonates today.

http://www.sensational-adelaide.com/for ... =18&t=4804

Just an anecdote. I was in Ostrava in the Czech republic two years ago, and watched the operation of a bus service that was substituting for trams. They were big bendy buses, and they were devouring passengers. I measured and video-ed one. It drew into the kerb, loaded over 150 people, and pulled out full in 35 seconds.

The reason? Four sets of double doors.

Almost every European city, excluding the UK, uses low floor buses with multiple entry. They are hugely faster traversing the CBD because of this. If you hark back to the days of the MTT, they used all door loading, carried more passenger in total, and had fewer stops along King William Street and Grenfell Street. The reason? If a bus is only thirty seconds at a stop, you need less stops than if the buses have to stand for two or three minutes waiting for people to file through a single entrance.