News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

[claybro]

Park and ride are an unfortunate result of how Australian cities have evolved. We are improving, by creating better employment/education/housing facilities away from, but including the CBD, but our sprawling suburbs make car use inevitable in some form. The thing is, no one can answer conclusively at this point if heavy rail, will still be required in the long distance commuter context as automated car share becomes a reality. This may require an increase in road space required, or a decrease depending who you talk to and the ability of the technology to tightly pack in more vehicles-however, most commuters will likely be taken directly to their destination. Park and ride facilities, where developed can then be re-purposed, or they may become more critical, as regardless of the capability of technology, all those folks on morning commute into the CBD's in carloads of even 4 people will create traffic chaos in the confines of a CBD. Perhaps scattered strategic park and rides can serve as a drop off for the small final leg to be by light rail, underground, or whatever. Interesting times, but regardless, in Adelaide's case, it needs to get better at integrating areas of commercial activity, with high density residential and public transport. With the examples of rail connectivity to the likes of Marion, Castle Plaza, even Mawson Lakes, we are light years away from ideal.

[PeFe]

Adelaide's love of the car has consequences.......even if some people chose to ignore them.
This article from The Advertiser discussing the percentage of people who take public transport to work in Adelaide.
One major discussion point from the article is that congestion would be eased for those who absolutely need to use their car to get to work, if more people took public transport to the CBD.

Majority of Adelaide commuters drive to work, which helps to create traffic gridlock

ADELAIDE has become Australia’s drive-to-work capital as an overwhelming majority of workers shun public transport, contributing to traffic gridlock.

Census figures released on Monday reveal that 80 per cent of Adelaide workers drove to their place of employment in 2016 — the highest rate of all the Australian capital cities.

The release of the data came after citybound motorists endured long delays on Monday morning because of major road and tramworks.

The beginning of work on King William Rd tramline extension and the redirection of vehicles on Main South Rd between the Southern Expressway contributed to congestion which forced traffic to a halt.

The number of South Australians who travelled to work by car climbed from 522,000 to 540,000 between the 2011 and 2016 Censuses. Workers who used public transport increased slightly from just under 51,000 to 53,000.

RAA senior manager Charles Mountain said many city workers choose to drive because the CBD was reasonably accessible. Mr Mountain said shift workers and people who needed to drop off or pick up children valued the flexibility that a private vehicle provided.

Full article : http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/sout ... 155cbdb626

[monotonehell]

Sigh. I was giving examples. Obviously, the location of such facilities would be such as to avoid the issues of inner urban congestion.

As for "sustainable" in this context, what exactly do you mean? If it can take enough cars off the road, it's sustainable. So, obviously you mean something else. Fair enough, but care to share?

Sorry, my comment was poorly worded and came across as completely disputing your point.

I was thinking back to the experiences in the UK from the 1960s to 1980s when they thought Park & Ride to rail was a good idea. So they put park and rides near many train stations, which just created gridlock near train stations. Since then, most of the facilities have been removed and the planners think more strategically about where they should be placed.

By sustainable in this context I meant park and ride facilities which become too popular for their own good. Vehicles swarm the facility, the PtB decide to expand the parking, more vehicles come, it's induced demand which concentrates the congestion in one place. Instead it has been found that improving the downstream services the concentration occurs on the PT, instead of on the roads.

Nort pointed out the opportunity cost equation...

I think park and ride facilities have their place. Someone may drive to a train station and then catch it into the CBD, whereas walking to a bus and taking that to the train station could add enough time onto their journey that they decide it's better to just drive into the CBD. It can also be used as part of growing a network. For example the tram extension down to the Entertainment Center almost certainly got improved patronage from the Park and Ride facilities there. The success of that extension means that further development of the PT network is easily justified which down the line can reduce the need to use private transport.

Passengers hate transfers, because they often include a time cost in reboarding, queueing, as well as other perceived delays and discomforts. The trick is to minimise these through a range of measures so that people don't just decide to drive the entire journey. If a park and ride has become so popular that it's a bunfight to get onto the PT, you will lose passengers. As what happened when the O-Bahn was promoted as a park and ride at TTP a few years ago. The public would have been better served with more door to door services at peak. Which ... kel surprise ... is exactly what the PtB have done since. Now that they have the extra vehicles, many services which used to be feeders now run directly into the CBD in the morning and run all the way from the CBD in the evening.

Sadly you can't do door to door with rail. You have to bring the passenger to the line with either feeder services (transfers!) or park and ride facilities. So those facilities need to be optimised to not annoy passengers.

[monotonehell]

Coincidently, I just read this on the ABC News' site.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-30/s ... es/9099272
Which pointed to this:
https://www.ptua.org.au/myths/parkride/
Talk about timely lol!

Expecting people to drive to railway stations puts an artificial limit on the number of passengers the train system can support. Car parks are expensive to build and maintain, are space-intensive, lock up valuable real estate near stations, and require public transport users to own just as many cars as if public transport didn’t exist. In well-patronised rail systems around the world, most train passengers arrive at the station by feeder bus or tram, not by car; it would simply be impossible to provide enough car parking to get all these passengers there by car instead.

And when it comes to encouraging car use while claiming to do the opposite – the goal of road-lobby spin doctors everywhere – park-and-ride (now separated from railway station access) is eminently suited to the task. In both Adelaide and Perth, planners have provided large car parks on the CBD fringe and encouraged their use through the provision of free bus or tram services. The planners’ spin draws attention to the well-patronised public transport service, neglecting to mention that this represents only the last mile of what are predominantly car journeys. If the car parks were located right in the CBD instead and the shuttle service dispensed with, overall traffic congestion and emissions would increase only marginally.

This was essentially the conclusion reached in a 2012 article in the journal Road & Transport Research. A team of five researchers found that after the South Australian Government opened a park-and-ride car park at the Adelaide Entertainment Centre, served by an extended tram route, car travel into central Adelaide actually increased. In fact nearly two-thirds of people using the new car park had previously travelled by public transport, but had replaced their public transport journey from home with a car trip instead. And because the tram from the car park to the CBD is free, the government actually lost all the revenue previously contributed by the public transport users.

(Take with a pinch of salt due to the website's PT bias.)

[claybro]

Coincidently, I just read this on the ABC News' site.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-30/s ... es/9099272
Which pointed to this:
https://www.ptua.org.au/myths/parkride/
Talk about timely lol!

Expecting people to drive to railway stations puts an artificial limit on the number of passengers the train system can support. Car parks are expensive to build and maintain, are space-intensive, lock up valuable real estate near stations, and require public transport users to own just as many cars as if public transport didn’t exist. In well-patronised rail systems around the world, most train passengers arrive at the station by feeder bus or tram, not by car; it would simply be impossible to provide enough car parking to get all these passengers there by car instead.

And when it comes to encouraging car use while claiming to do the opposite – the goal of road-lobby spin doctors everywhere – park-and-ride (now separated from railway station access) is eminently suited to the task. In both Adelaide and Perth, planners have provided large car parks on the CBD fringe and encouraged their use through the provision of free bus or tram services. The planners’ spin draws attention to the well-patronised public transport service, neglecting to mention that this represents only the last mile of what are predominantly car journeys. If the car parks were located right in the CBD instead and the shuttle service dispensed with, overall traffic congestion and emissions would increase only marginally.

This was essentially the conclusion reached in a 2012 article in the journal Road & Transport Research. A team of five researchers found that after the South Australian Government opened a park-and-ride car park at the Adelaide Entertainment Centre, served by an extended tram route, car travel into central Adelaide actually increased. In fact nearly two-thirds of people using the new car park had previously travelled by public transport, but had replaced their public transport journey from home with a car trip instead. And because the tram from the car park to the CBD is free, the government actually lost all the revenue previously contributed by the public transport users.

(Take with a pinch of salt due to the website's PT bias.)

Interesting they mention Perth in this as I have used both systems regularly. Perth park and rides are NOT located on the CBD fringe, but at various train stations throughout the metro area. These act also as bus train interchange, so buses radiate out from these park and ride/bus/train interchange to surrounding suburbs. This reduces the amount of drivers travelling to inner suburban arrears from outer suburbs, but also reduces the amount of buses traveling to the CBD. Train stations are spaced well apart, and trains travel at up to 130km/h.
This system would not work nor be popular in Adelaide as
1. The train stations are located too close together to achieve any great time saving by transferring to train (unable to get up to max speed) too many stops.
2. Adelaide commuters loath changing seats.
3. Adelaide still has not really embraced high density living, but still want to drive almost everywhere.
This is why some in Adelaide seem to be in favour of CBD fringe park and ride, when really they are ideally located further out.
By no means is the Perth system perfect by the way and is often roundly criticised here, but they are spoiled in comparison.

[Goodsy]

Interesting they mention Perth in this as I have used both systems regularly. Perth park and rides are NOT located on the CBD fringe, but at various train stations throughout the metro area. These act also as bus train interchange, so buses radiate out from these park and ride/bus/train interchange to surrounding suburbs. This reduces the amount of drivers travelling to inner suburban arrears from outer suburbs, but also reduces the amount of buses traveling to the CBD. Train stations are spaced well apart, and trains travel at up to 130km/h.
This system would not work nor be popular in Adelaide as
1. The train stations are located too close together to achieve any great time saving by transferring to train (unable to get up to max speed) too many stops.
2. Adelaide commuters loath changing seats.
3. Adelaide still has not really embraced high density living, but still want to drive almost everywhere.
This is why some in Adelaide seem to be in favour of CBD fringe park and ride, when really they are ideally located further out.
By no means is the Perth system perfect by the way and is often roundly criticised here, but they are spoiled in comparison.

the only place I could see the Perth model working is up Port Wakefield road if they copied the Mitchell freeway model with a train track up the middle. Could be a good way to service Virginia, Two Wells and Buckland Park if that is ever filled in

[claybro]

On that note, I am not a total fan of the Perth model, but it works here. Most immigrants to Perth want a sprawling home 10 minutes from the beach. The Mitchel and Kwinana freeways and associated bus/train infrastructure have encouraged this, creating a metro area now from Mandurah to Yanchep some 120km. Commuters here still complain about the congested trains and freeways, but I don't think people realise without these, their McMansion on the coast would not be possible.
A solution for Adelaide given a new network is slowly rising from the ashes of the 1920's steam era, would be to create some integrated park and ride/bus/ shopping precincts, incorporating high density housing in the middle and outer suburbs. Then CLOSE HALF of the bus shelter on platform stations, speed the trains up and push the trains through the CBD via underground. There are elements of this appearing, but they just don't seem to be able to tie it all together. Mawson Lakes kind of went there, but the station is too far from the commercial precinct.
Also, commuters would have to get used to transferring, like they do in most other major cities in the world.

[monotonehell]

On that note, I am not a total fan of the Perth model, but it works here. Most immigrants to Perth want a sprawling home 10 minutes from the beach. The Mitchel and Kwinana freeways and associated bus/train infrastructure have encouraged this, creating a metro area now from Mandurah to Yanchep some 120km. Commuters here still complain about the congested trains and freeways, but I don't think people realise without these, their McMansion on the coast would not be possible.
A solution for Adelaide given a new network is slowly rising from the ashes of the 1920's steam era, would be to create some integrated park and ride/bus/ shopping precincts, incorporating high density housing in the middle and outer suburbs. Then CLOSE HALF of the bus shelter on platform stations, speed the trains up and push the trains through the CBD via underground. There are elements of this appearing, but they just don't seem to be able to tie it all together. Mawson Lakes kind of went there, but the station is too far from the commercial precinct.
Also, commuters would have to get used to transferring, like they do in most other major cities in the world.

Adelaide's greater metropolitan area is narrow and long (around 70 KMs as the crow flies) constrained on one side by the Gulf of St Vincent and on the other by the Adelaide Hills.

Perth: Hold my beer.

[Norman]

If Adelaide's trains want more patronage they will need to do two important things:
1. Build the underground loop/connector. The existing Adelaide station is, whether real or perceived, still too remote from a majority of the main business district to attract a patronage to is full potential. The second thing it will fix is the long dwell times at Adelaide Station.

2. The other important thing is lack of carriages. I can only speak on behalf of the Seaford Line, but it is currently maxed out at 3 carriages as the platform length is too short at a handful of stations to accommodate long trains. This should be fixed for the express services once the new Oaklands Station is done. I hope that DPTI will make the right call and introduces 6 carriage trains once this has been corrected.

[ChillyPhilly]

A big fact about Adelaide that everyone has seemed to miss, including those articles, is that only about 15% of all jobs in metropolitan Adelaide are actually in the CBD.

Our public transport is designed and physically built around the sorely outdated idea that everyone travels into the CBD for work and the like.

Adelaide is now a decentralised city and has been since the 1980s. What is still failing are the cross-suburban transport options. But these in themselves are not adequately supported due to issues in transit user behaviour: people drive to Park and Rides. The government and planners alike ideally wish for people to change their behaviour, and cycle or walk to their nearest option, rather than drive.

[Nort]

A big fact about Adelaide that everyone has seemed to miss, including those articles, is that only about 15% of all jobs in metropolitan Adelaide are actually in the CBD.

Our public transport is designed and physically built around the sorely outdated idea that everyone travels into the CBD for work and the like.

Adelaide is now a decentralised city and has been since the 1980s. What is still failing are the cross-suburban transport options. But these in themselves are not adequately supported due to issues in transit user behaviour: people drive to Park and Rides. The government and planners alike ideally wish for people to change their behaviour, and cycle or walk to their nearest option, rather than drive.

All the more reason to focus housing development on increasing city and inner-suburban density. The same infrastructure designed to bring people towards the center of Adelaide works to take people out of it.

[claybro]

A big fact about Adelaide that everyone has seemed to miss, including those articles, is that only about 15% of all jobs in metropolitan Adelaide are actually in the CBD.

Our public transport is designed and physically built around the sorely outdated idea that everyone travels into the CBD for work and the like.

Adelaide is now a decentralised city and has been since the 1980s. What is still failing are the cross-suburban transport options. But these in themselves are not adequately supported due to issues in transit user behaviour: people drive to Park and Rides. The government and planners alike ideally wish for people to change their behaviour, and cycle or walk to their nearest option, rather than drive.

All the more reason to focus housing development on increasing city and inner-suburban density. The same infrastructure designed to bring people towards the center of Adelaide works to take people out of it.

Agree entirely, but density also needs to significantly ramp up in areas like Salisbury, port Adelaide, around Marion/ Edwardstown etc. these are all areas well serviced by existing rail, and even able to be interconnected by rail. So far however, apart from some new trains, and tidied up platforms, there seems to be no serious effort to speed up the system or plan for proper integrated facilities in these areas. A good start would be at least culling small whistle stops, and planning some proper infrastructure around the larger stations to encourage development. Mini CBD's all connected with each other by rail, fed by local smaller buses.

[SBD]

Interesting they mention Perth in this as I have used both systems regularly. Perth park and rides are NOT located on the CBD fringe, but at various train stations throughout the metro area. These act also as bus train interchange, so buses radiate out from these park and ride/bus/train interchange to surrounding suburbs. This reduces the amount of drivers travelling to inner suburban arrears from outer suburbs, but also reduces the amount of buses traveling to the CBD. Train stations are spaced well apart, and trains travel at up to 130km/h.
This system would not work nor be popular in Adelaide as
1. The train stations are located too close together to achieve any great time saving by transferring to train (unable to get up to max speed) too many stops.
2. Adelaide commuters loath changing seats.
3. Adelaide still has not really embraced high density living, but still want to drive almost everywhere.
This is why some in Adelaide seem to be in favour of CBD fringe park and ride, when really they are ideally located further out.
By no means is the Perth system perfect by the way and is often roundly criticised here, but they are spoiled in comparison.

the only place I could see the Perth model working is up Port Wakefield road if they copied the Mitchell freeway model with a train track up the middle. Could be a good way to service Virginia, Two Wells and Buckland Park if that is ever filled in

...coupled with a City of Playford tram network running Buckland Park-Virginia (rail interchange)-Angle Vale-Macdonald Park-Munno Para West-Andrews Farm-Munno Para (western side) and most of the 45x bus routes connecting the western side of Munno Para, Smithfield and Elizabeth shopping centres, railway stations, employment, schools and housing. Trams might handle the grades to Blakeview, Craigmore, Elizabeth Downs, Elizabeth Park, Hillbank on the eastern side too (44x bus routes).

Bunnings currently looks like it's out in the middle of nowhere, very car-centric. Catching a tram to Bunnings would be a great novelty. Buckland Park to Blakeview is similar distance as Henley Beach to Magill, but would allow faster running in some sections.

[Llessur2002]

Progress update on the new Croydon Railway Station.

[Norman]

Thanks for the updates