News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#3781 Post by rubberman » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:17 pm

claybro wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:14 pm
rubberman wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:41 pm
You could run the light rail through the tunnel. Outer Harbor to Belair. Cheaper than heavy rail, and likely faster if operated properly. How much cheaper, and how much faster is the billion dollar question, though. Having said that, if the government were to consider tunnels seriously (I mean a bit more than some lines on a pdf and incoherent mumbles about "...the future, something..something...Federal funding..something..something...feasibility studies...something..." ), then for the several billion dollar cost, it would be almost certain to look at both light and heavy rail options. I don't think anyone has enough information to know how a realistic evaluation would turn out.
I think the dual operation conundrum was put to bed with the failure of the concept for the OH line.-It died off very quietly almost as soon as it was proposed. That being the case, there is absolutely no way they will have dual running of heavy and light rail through the tunnel. As the north/south lines are by far the most important as far as connection, I don't see any way we would ever see light rail running through a CBD underground. OH may be electrified, but I think it will still terminate at Adelaide station, unless the can link it up with the Flinders line. Then there is Belair..., on its own, heavy rail, single line in sections, diesel mode, difficult to electrify without altering the tunnels, or having dedicated railcars that can run on battery power during the length of the tunnels...hmm-will it even exist in 30 years time?
There was hardly any need to do it at the time it was proposed. The railcars were in good nick, the rail can easily be regauged, there was no need to consider the cost of electrification, there was no firm plan for a tunnel. So, there was literally no economic case. A lot of expenditure on new trams, stops and electrification while existing equipment was in working order? Of course trams weren't going to happen. Why spend hundreds of millions for no great outcome?

However, when you've got to decide if you are going to spend on new railcars vs new trams, and railway standard electrification vs tram standard, and tram sized tunnels vs heavy rail sized? Another situation entirely.

I agree it is unlikely to be dual heavy/light rail in the tunnel. It is most likely to be one or the other.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#3782 Post by ml69 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:59 pm

claybro wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:14 pm
As the north/south lines are by far the most important as far as connection, I don't see any way we would ever see light rail running through a CBD underground. OH may be electrified, but I think it will still terminate at Adelaide station, unless the can link it up with the Flinders line. Then there is Belair..., on its own, heavy rail, single line in sections, diesel mode, difficult to electrify without altering the tunnels, or having dedicated railcars that can run on battery power during the length of the tunnels...hmm-will it even exist in 30 years time?
What about this ...

Using new CBD tunnel (electric trains only):
- Seaford / Gawler line
- Port Dock / Flinders line ... about the same length
- Outer Harbor line (turn back at Mile End)

Using existing Adelaide Railway Station (until a decision is made regarding what to do with these diesel lines)
- Grange line
- Belair line

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#3783 Post by [Shuz] » Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:43 pm

It should be GAW-SEA through, OUTH, FLIN through (Flinders extended via old Willunga corridor), TTP (Obahn) - BEL through Adelaide via Mile End in seperate tunnel, Grange convert to bus.

Other future lines such as Buckland Park would need to depend on demand and could just simply transfer at Salisbury onto GAW-SEA.
Any views and opinions expressed are of my own, and do not reflect the views or opinions of any organisation of which I have an affiliation with.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#3784 Post by Aidan » Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:26 am

You could certainly run light rail through tunnels, but one of its main advantages is you don't have to. If given sufficient priority, on street running can still achieve reasonable speeds and can usually get passengers nearer their destinations.

The smaller dimensions of LRVs means they'd be well suited to the Belair Line - not so much space needed to add more tracks, and easier to electrify through tunnels. Whereas on the Outer Harbour Line, street running in Port Adelaide and on branches (such as to West Lakes) would be light rail's great advantage.

One thing that should be ruled out straight away, though, is light rail sharing the same tracks with heavy rail. It may be OK for small cities, but Adelaide's an increasingly large city that requires intensive services.

As for the O-bahn, I think it should remain an O-bahn. It's very good at connecting 2D sprawl with the City. But I would like to see a Gilberton station added.
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#3785 Post by rhino » Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:43 am

I could be wrong about this, but it is my understanding that heavy electric rail and light rail in Adelaide require different voltages and different types of current (AC and DC).
How easy is it to share tunnel space with these constraints?
What gauge are the trams?
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#3786 Post by SBD » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:01 am

rhino wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:43 am
I could be wrong about this, but it is my understanding that heavy electric rail and light rail in Adelaide require different voltages and different types of current (AC and DC).
How easy is it to share tunnel space with these constraints?
What gauge are the trams?
Trams are the same rail spacing as standard gauge railway, but usually a different rail/wheel profile.

light rail and heavy rail usually have quite different platform height requirements too. I'm not sure about loading gauge (as in could a vehicle of one kind fit past a platform for the other).

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#3787 Post by Eurostar » Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:37 am

Once the electrification of the Gawler Line is complete the government should buy some dmu sets and start up a regional services. It could be called something line SALine

1) Adelaide Railway Station to Clare
2) Adelaide Railway Station to Nuriootpa
3) Adelaide Railway Station to Willunga (the corridor is still there, it just needs rebuilding)

Also why not run a few passenger services a day between Mount Barker and Victor Harbour

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#3788 Post by SBD » Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:58 am

Eurostar wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:37 am
Once the electrification of the Gawler Line is complete the government should buy some dmu sets and start up a regional services. It could be called something line SALine

1) Adelaide Railway Station to Clare
2) Adelaide Railway Station to Nuriootpa
3) Adelaide Railway Station to Willunga (the corridor is still there, it just needs rebuilding)

Also why not run a few passenger services a day between Mount Barker and Victor Harbour
Nuriootpa track is still there but needs a lot of work to run trains on it again. The Clare and Willunga corridors are both now popular bike/shared paths (there might still be out-of-service track between Gawler and Riverton, but it also needs work).

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#3789 Post by Goodsy » Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:00 pm

Eurostar wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:37 am
Once the electrification of the Gawler Line is complete the government should buy some dmu sets and start up a regional services. It could be called something line SALine

1) Adelaide Railway Station to Clare
2) Adelaide Railway Station to Nuriootpa
3) Adelaide Railway Station to Willunga (the corridor is still there, it just needs rebuilding)

Also why not run a few passenger services a day between Mount Barker and Victor Harbour
also bring standard gauge into one of the platforms and run a daily service to Port Pirie

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#3790 Post by SBD » Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:27 pm

Goodsy wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:00 pm
Eurostar wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:37 am
Once the electrification of the Gawler Line is complete the government should buy some dmu sets and start up a regional services. It could be called something line SALine

1) Adelaide Railway Station to Clare
2) Adelaide Railway Station to Nuriootpa
3) Adelaide Railway Station to Willunga (the corridor is still there, it just needs rebuilding)

Also why not run a few passenger services a day between Mount Barker and Victor Harbour
also bring standard gauge into one of the platforms and run a daily service to Port Pirie
That route is at least plausible if there is enough space between the freight trains. It could go further than just Port Pirie - include Port Augusta and Whyalla too. Some vision and more dollars could upgrade, fill some gaps, and change gauge to link it the rest of the way to Port Lincoln. It might only be 30km from the southern end of the iron ore trains to the proposed port near Cowell.

The pipedream of running trains on shared paths should have included Kadina/Wallaroo/Moonta as well. There might even still be rails between Snowtown and Kadina (not sure), it's only a cycle path through and beyond Kadina.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#3791 Post by Westside » Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:35 pm

Aidan wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:26 am
You could certainly run light rail through tunnels, but one of its main advantages is you don't have to. If given sufficient priority, on street running can still achieve reasonable speeds and can usually get passengers nearer their destinations.
This.

We aren't ever going to need a light rail tunnel in Adelaide. If any of the current heavy rail lines get converted to light rail, they simply traverse the existing track and you have the transport servicing the majority of the city just like that.

The interesting thing will be how much consideration a heavy rail tunnel will have on the likelihood of converting lines. Currently all the data models point to LR providing a better or at least on-par transport experience to HR. But HR falls down heavily by the fact that it dumps people on the edge of the city. With a serious push for a heavy rail tunnel, the economics of converting lines just won't stack up (for most) and electrification suddenly looks the better option.

Reminder, you don't need equal #s of trains heading north and south through the tunnel. Simply provide a turnback at/near ARS and Showgrounds stations so that all electrified lines can use the tunnel so passengers aren't forced to transfer for the last stop or two.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#3792 Post by rubberman » Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:07 pm

Westside wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:35 pm
Aidan wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:26 am
You could certainly run light rail through tunnels, but one of its main advantages is you don't have to. If given sufficient priority, on street running can still achieve reasonable speeds and can usually get passengers nearer their destinations.
This.

We aren't ever going to need a light rail tunnel in Adelaide. If any of the current heavy rail lines get converted to light rail, they simply traverse the existing track and you have the transport servicing the majority of the city just like that.

The interesting thing will be how much consideration a heavy rail tunnel will have on the likelihood of converting lines. Currently all the data models point to LR providing a better or at least on-par transport experience to HR. But HR falls down heavily by the fact that it dumps people on the edge of the city. With a serious push for a heavy rail tunnel, the economics of converting lines just won't stack up (for most) and electrification suddenly looks the better option.

Reminder, you don't need equal #s of trains heading north and south through the tunnel. Simply provide a turnback at/near ARS and Showgrounds stations so that all electrified lines can use the tunnel so passengers aren't forced to transfer for the last stop or two.
I feel that this is all a lot of speculation unless we know the relative costs of the alternatives.

If heavy rail electrification to Outer Harbor and heavy rail tunnels costs about the same as light rail, that's one thing. However, if it was $500m or more cheaper to put in light rail it's another. If light rail can do the job, it's one thing, if light rail can't, it's another.

Without costs and passenger figures, someone saying it's going to happen one way or another is simply making a wild surmise.By all means, let our imaginations run free, but without hard figures, it's just little more than random guesses.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#3793 Post by PeFe » Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:23 pm

Why would rebuilding the Outer Harbor line as light rail be cheaper than heavy rail electrificaion?

If you did turn the Outer Harbor line into light rail then you would still have to electrify it (differnent voltage to the current heavy rail system and need to disengage any overlap) rebuild all the stations along the line, replace all current diesel vehicles with trams (even if they still have 20 years left in them)

Guestimate of tram/light rail build costs from scatch $100 million per kilometre, the cost of Outer Harbor would be less because the cleared track is already there so it wont be 100 per/km so lets say 50 per/km, the Outer Harbor/Grange length is 22/5 kilometres making a total of 27 kilometres.....
guestimate cost $1.3 billion......

And the West Lakes extension (3kms of totally new track and services etc) about $300 million....

Now how much is the Gawler electrification costing $360 million(?)

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#3794 Post by rhino » Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:40 pm

PeFe wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:23 pm
And the West Lakes extension (3kms of totally new track and services etc) about $300 million....
Victoria Square to the Railway Station (approx. 1km, but it was down King William Street and North Tce) was $21million IIRC. It wasn't that long ago - I don't know that the cost of building to Outer Harbor would be $50million per kilometre in today's money.

I am not an advocate for one over the other, I just thought that figure looked a bit steep.
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#3795 Post by PeFe » Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:53 pm

rhino wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:40 pm

Victoria Square to the Railway Station (approx. 1km, but it was down King William Street and North Tce) was $21million IIRC. It wasn't that long ago - I don't know that the cost of building to Outer Harbor would be $50million per kilometre in today's money.
It might have been $21 million in 2007......but not in 2018....let alone 2025 or 2035 whnever the next tram extensions get done.

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