Sensational-Adelaide.com

Westside wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:35 pm

Aidan wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:26 am

You could certainly run light rail through tunnels, but one of its main advantages is you don't have to. If given sufficient priority, on street running can still achieve reasonable speeds and can usually get passengers nearer their destinations.

This.

We aren't ever going to need a light rail tunnel in Adelaide. If any of the current heavy rail lines get converted to light rail, they simply traverse the existing track and you have the transport servicing the majority of the city just like that.

The interesting thing will be how much consideration a heavy rail tunnel will have on the likelihood of converting lines. Currently all the data models point to LR providing a better or at least on-par transport experience to HR. But HR falls down heavily by the fact that it dumps people on the edge of the city. With a serious push for a heavy rail tunnel, the economics of converting lines just won't stack up (for most) and electrification suddenly looks the better option.

Exactly.

If there was ABSOLUTELY no chance of a rail tunnel ever being built, I'd support the OH and Grange line being converted to light rail. Because you could run it into the heart of the CBD. Same for the Belair line.

But with the possibility of a CBD rail tunnel (I believe it's inevitable, just a matter of time and $$) ... well that's a public transport gamechanger and it means that we should now try to run everything possible through this tube as the time-saving for commuters to most parts of the city will be enormous. It also allows for a doubling of existing capacity, meaning you could run more frequent services.

PeFe wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:23 pm

Why would rebuilding the Outer Harbor line as light rail be cheaper than heavy rail electrificaion?

If you did turn the Outer Harbor line into light rail then you would still have to electrify it (differnent voltage to the current heavy rail system and need to disengage any overlap) rebuild all the stations along the line, replace all current diesel vehicles with trams (even if they still have 20 years left in them)

Guestimate of tram/light rail build costs from scatch $100 million per kilometre, the cost of Outer Harbor would be less because the cleared track is already there so it wont be 100 per/km so lets say 50 per/km, the Outer Harbor/Grange length is 22/5 kilometres making a total of 27 kilometres.....
guestimate cost $1.3 billion......

And the West Lakes extension (3kms of totally new track and services etc) about $300 million....

Now how much is the Gawler electrification costing $360 million(?)

Well, trams are considerably cheaper than railcars. Then, tram overhead is a lot lighter than heavy rail overhead. You don't have to look past that to see that it will be somewhat cheaper. Now whether it is a lot or a little is another matter, and there's the cost of new platforms, but it won't need signals. Point is, nobody here knows what those costs are.

As for not doing anything while the existing diesel railcars still have a service life? Exactly. Nobody's going to do anything about electrifying the Outer Harbor or Hills lines while those diesels are chugging along. That's true for both heavy and light rail electrification. Not a chance they will spend a few hundred million dollars on anything until the diesels come up for replacement. However, at that point, everything is on the table, replacement diesels, or trams or heavy rail electrification. Without the actual costs, speculation is all that's happening. Harmless, off course, but I'm not going to set myself up for disappointment by trying to predict an outcome that is dependent on prices and government priorities in ten to fifteen years' time.

PeFe wrote:

rhino wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:40 pm

Victoria Square to the Railway Station (approx. 1km, but it was down King William Street and North Tce) was $21million IIRC. It wasn't that long ago - I don't know that the cost of building to Outer Harbor would be $50million per kilometre in today's money.

It might have been $21 million in 2007......but not in 2018....let alone 2025 or 2035 whnever the next tram extensions get done.

Victoria Square to City West was $31m, City West to Hindmarsh was $100m and King William Street to East End cost around $120m (final cost figures still pending)

Electrifying a heavy rail line will definitely be cheaper than converting a rail line to light rail - especially one as long as the OH line. The main economic advantage of light rail is that it can deliver passengers right to the heart of the city, which heavy rail cannot do for now. IF there is a real chance that a heavy rail tunnel is a possibility in the next 20-40 years, then that benefit no longer swings in the favour of light rail. I'm not suggesting that electrification AND a rail tunnel is cheaper than light rail conversion. But if a tunnel is going to be available for the Seaford and Gawler lines, then that significantly changes the cost-benefit calculations of the options put forward for the Belair and OH/Grange/PD lines in favour of them remaining heavy rail.

Aidan wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:47 pm

There have been lots of plans to expand and electrify our railways. Many have relied on Federal funding which was not available. There have been technical disagreements as to whether it should be 1500V DC or 25kV AC. And at least one study concluded the costs outweigh the benefits.

What are the benefits anyway? I've heard people say Sydney, Melbourne, New York or London have had electric trains for x number of years but what are the actual benefits? What are the downsides? Does it make our trains more dependant on infrastructure that might fail?

Please don't think I'm against electrification. I'm all for it if the benefits outweigh the costs.

Westside wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:10 pm

IF there is a real chance that a heavy rail tunnel is a possibility in the next 20-40 years, then that benefit no longer swings in the favour of light rail. I'm not suggesting that electrification AND a rail tunnel is cheaper than light rail conversion. But if a tunnel is going to be available for the Seaford and Gawler lines, then that significantly changes the cost-benefit calculations of the options put forward for the Belair and OH/Grange/PD lines in favour of them remaining heavy rail.

Agreed. What I said yesterday.

RetroGamer87 wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:55 pm

Aidan wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:47 pm

There have been lots of plans to expand and electrify our railways. Many have relied on Federal funding which was not available. There have been technical disagreements as to whether it should be 1500V DC or 25kV AC. And at least one study concluded the costs outweigh the benefits.

What are the benefits anyway? I've heard people say Sydney, Melbourne, New York or London have had electric trains for x number of years but what are the actual benefits? What are the downsides? Does it make our trains more dependant on infrastructure that might fail?

Please don't think I'm against electrification. I'm all for it if the benefits outweigh the costs.

Electric trains are quieter, faster, more energy efficient, less moving parts, less prone to breakdown, less polluting, able to use tunnels without expensive exhaust ventilation, able to run on renewable power.

RetroGamer87 wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:55 pm

Aidan wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:47 pm

There have been lots of plans to expand and electrify our railways. Many have relied on Federal funding which was not available. There have been technical disagreements as to whether it should be 1500V DC or 25kV AC. And at least one study concluded the costs outweigh the benefits.

What are the benefits anyway? I've heard people say Sydney, Melbourne, New York or London have had electric trains for x number of years but what are the actual benefits? What are the downsides? Does it make our trains more dependant on infrastructure that might fail?

Please don't think I'm against electrification. I'm all for it if the benefits outweigh the costs.

Given SA's electricity prices, probably nothing apart from the fact that it's easier to run them in tunnels.

RetroGamer87,
In addition to what claybro said, electric trains can put electricity back in the wires when they brake.

1NEEDS2POST,
False. SA's wholesale electricity prices aren't particularly high any more, and they're likely to fall further as we get more solar panels and batteries. Plus electric trains have lower maintenance costs.

Does anyone know why the trains aren't running tonight? Is this something to do with the Gawler electronication or just regular maintenance. Are all lines affected or just the Gawler line?

RetroGamer87 wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:57 pm

Does anyone know why the trains aren't running tonight? Is this something to do with the Gawler electronication or just regular maintenance. Are all lines affected or just the Gawler line?

All lines are affected as the signalling centre is shifted to Dry Creek from the SAHMRI 2 site. During that time no signals are operating, hence the need for the shutdown.

https://www.adelaidemetro.com.au/Announ ... rail-lines

Minor works have been occurring for the GREP - the Gawler Rail Electrification Project. Found some old notices regarding minor works that I hadn't seen previously.

The new control centre as seen from the railyard today.

Is it the new control centre? I thought it was in Dry Creek.

It looks far too small to be a control centre.