News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

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Nort
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4501 Post by Nort » Thu May 21, 2020 4:23 pm

Patrick_27 wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 3:20 pm
SBD wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 12:27 am
claybro wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 11:28 pm
The whole heavy v light rail is now kind of irrelevant in regard to the Northwest corridor anyway. It's dead. We MIGHT see the main line electrified in the next decade, but that's about it. I would expect at that time Grange will be closed as there is no way it could be cost effective for 4 barely used stations traversing a golf course. Seems a shame, when the Glenelg tram has been such a success increasing patronage since its upgrade despite the rediculous speed and running restrictions in place. I doubt just electrifying OH in its existing state will have the same impact of increasing patronage.
3000-class have recently undergone life-of-type extension upgrades. They will also have less work once the Gawler line is electrified. By the time they are due for replacement, there will be cost savings in going to an all-electric fleet by closing or electrifying both the Belair and Grange/Outer Harbor lines. If a tunnel is built through the CBD, it is likely to not be ventilated for diesel trains, so electric would be required to run Belair and OH trains through it. That's cost and utility reasons to electrify it eventually, without needing to increase the patronage as well.
As far as I'm concerned, I want to see the remainder of the train network electrified before a CBD tunnel is even considered. If our state government can't get serious about electrifying the whole network, I don't see them ever getting serious about a CBD tunnel.
Flipping it around, taking plans like a CBD underground seriously would force things like the electrification of the network.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4502 Post by Patrick_27 » Thu May 21, 2020 4:59 pm

Nort wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 4:23 pm
Patrick_27 wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 3:20 pm
SBD wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 12:27 am


3000-class have recently undergone life-of-type extension upgrades. They will also have less work once the Gawler line is electrified. By the time they are due for replacement, there will be cost savings in going to an all-electric fleet by closing or electrifying both the Belair and Grange/Outer Harbor lines. If a tunnel is built through the CBD, it is likely to not be ventilated for diesel trains, so electric would be required to run Belair and OH trains through it. That's cost and utility reasons to electrify it eventually, without needing to increase the patronage as well.
As far as I'm concerned, I want to see the remainder of the train network electrified before a CBD tunnel is even considered. If our state government can't get serious about electrifying the whole network, I don't see them ever getting serious about a CBD tunnel.
Flipping it around, taking plans like a CBD underground seriously would force things like the electrification of the network.
Yes, but let's look at this realistically, we can't afford for both to happen concurrently, nor can we afford for one to happen immediately before the other. The price tag on a OH/Belair electrification would be probably $1b in today's dollars, who knows what it will be in five years time, and a tunnel could cost us anywhere in the vicinity of $3-7b (if interstate costings are anything to go by. Remember, this is a PT project, we can't even afford to get the best version of a South Road upgrade (a tunnel) and all three major parties agree that South Road needs to happen. When the Federal Libs don't support funding PT projects for the states and the Lib state government doesn't take rail seriously, how can anyone expect it to get off the ground?

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4503 Post by claybro » Thu May 21, 2020 6:22 pm

PeFe wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:16 pm
claybro wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 1:35 pm

Again not a fair comparison, because the train does not enter the CBD, it stops on the edge forcing its Users's to either walk or take the tram anyway.
What????? The Adelaide Railway Station is not in the CBD.....Not in my definition of "central business district/city centre".

You walk north from the train station for sports and entertainment, you walk west from the train station for medical and education facilities, you walk east from the train station for major shopping, you walk east and south east for major office blocks....

Just because the train doesn't stop in the middle of Rundle Mall, that doesn't make it non central....the tram doesnt stop at Hindmarsh Square but does that make the tram non-CBD.

Even in the best public transport cities in the world you have to walk.....it is impossible to have great public transport to every office block's front entrance.

If the Adelaide Railway station is not in the CBD, then neither is the Perth Railway Station ( because you have to walk to St Georges Terrace to your office) and neither is Flinders Street Station in Melbourne, because you have to walk to Collins Street or Bourke Street to your office.
You specifically compared travel times between the train and the tram using RUNDLE MALL for the tram, and ARS for a train from Port Adelaide-seemingly to create a similar distance. Obviously the tram travel time is longer because for the last part of its trip it traverses all of the core CBD, multiple stops and many many more boardings...the train does not-its stops on the edge of the CBD...im not sure how this comparison is relevant, or the other states. It was a reply SPECIFICALLY related to your comparison.
Nort wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 4:23 pm
Flipping it around, taking plans like a CBD underground seriously would force things like the electrification of the network.
There are no plans or even concepts to connect the OH line to a city tunnel. Only the Gawler /Seafod lines.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4504 Post by ml69 » Thu May 21, 2020 7:03 pm

mattwinter wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 1:38 pm
Surely the biggest factor that would increase usage would be building a CBD underground... if they're planning to do that in the next 30 years and planning to include links for the OH and Belair lines, then converting them to trams doesn't make any sense....
Yes Yes and Yes. The CBD underground rail is the most expensive public transport option but the one thing that will revolutionise public transport in Adelaide.

It can revolutionise it because bus commuters from the outer north, outer south and north-western suburbs will also be big winners with underground rail, saving them substantial amounts of time to get into the CBD compared to bus or car travel at peak time.

Perth has done it, Auckland is doing it now. In particular with Auckland, we will be able to get a very good gauge of the impact that the rail through-link will have on patronage. Their rail system is very very similar to ours in most respects. Let’s learn their lessons.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4505 Post by SBD » Thu May 21, 2020 8:02 pm

claybro wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 6:22 pm
PeFe wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:16 pm
claybro wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 1:35 pm

Again not a fair comparison, because the train does not enter the CBD, it stops on the edge forcing its Users's to either walk or take the tram anyway.
What????? The Adelaide Railway Station is not in the CBD.....Not in my definition of "central business district/city centre".

You walk north from the train station for sports and entertainment, you walk west from the train station for medical and education facilities, you walk east from the train station for major shopping, you walk east and south east for major office blocks....

Just because the train doesn't stop in the middle of Rundle Mall, that doesn't make it non central....the tram doesnt stop at Hindmarsh Square but does that make the tram non-CBD.

Even in the best public transport cities in the world you have to walk.....it is impossible to have great public transport to every office block's front entrance.

If the Adelaide Railway station is not in the CBD, then neither is the Perth Railway Station ( because you have to walk to St Georges Terrace to your office) and neither is Flinders Street Station in Melbourne, because you have to walk to Collins Street or Bourke Street to your office.
You specifically compared travel times between the train and the tram using RUNDLE MALL for the tram, and ARS for a train from Port Adelaide-seemingly to create a similar distance. Obviously the tram travel time is longer because for the last part of its trip it traverses all of the core CBD, multiple stops and many many more boardings...the train does not-its stops on the edge of the CBD...im not sure how this comparison is relevant, or the other states. It was a reply SPECIFICALLY related to your comparison.
Nort wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 4:23 pm
Flipping it around, taking plans like a CBD underground seriously would force things like the electrification of the network.
There are no plans or even concepts to connect the OH line to a city tunnel. Only the Gawler /Seafod lines.
Even discounting the on-street running of the tram, the Adelaide Metro Journey Planner defers to Google Maps, which says it is 24 minutes from Stop 15 Brighton Road to the South Terrace stop. That's shorter than ARS to Port Adelaide Station, still slightly longer time, and requires walking to the edge of Glenelg and from the edge of Adelaide.

As the OH line runs adjacent to the Gawler line, and the Belair line adjacent to the Seaford/Tonsley line, I would expect that if they are electrified, there would be crossovers to allow running on each other's lines (and hence through any future tunnel). I expect that making the tunnel(s) suitable for diesel would make them more expensive, so would probably not be done.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4506 Post by claybro » Thu May 21, 2020 9:04 pm

SBD wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 8:02 pm
claybro wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 6:22 pm
PeFe wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:16 pm


What????? The Adelaide Railway Station is not in the CBD.....Not in my definition of "central business district/city centre".

You walk north from the train station for sports and entertainment, you walk west from the train station for medical and education facilities, you walk east from the train station for major shopping, you walk east and south east for major office blocks....

Just because the train doesn't stop in the middle of Rundle Mall, that doesn't make it non central....the tram doesnt stop at Hindmarsh Square but does that make the tram non-CBD.

Even in the best public transport cities in the world you have to walk.....it is impossible to have great public transport to every office block's front entrance.

If the Adelaide Railway station is not in the CBD, then neither is the Perth Railway Station ( because you have to walk to St Georges Terrace to your office) and neither is Flinders Street Station in Melbourne, because you have to walk to Collins Street or Bourke Street to your office.
You specifically compared travel times between the train and the tram using RUNDLE MALL for the tram, and ARS for a train from Port Adelaide-seemingly to create a similar distance. Obviously the tram travel time is longer because for the last part of its trip it traverses all of the core CBD, multiple stops and many many more boardings...the train does not-its stops on the edge of the CBD...im not sure how this comparison is relevant, or the other states. It was a reply SPECIFICALLY related to your comparison.
Nort wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 4:23 pm
Flipping it around, taking plans like a CBD underground seriously would force things like the electrification of the network.
There are no plans or even concepts to connect the OH line to a city tunnel. Only the Gawler /Seafod lines.
Even discounting the on-street running of the tram, the Adelaide Metro Journey Planner defers to Google Maps, which says it is 24 minutes from Stop 15 Brighton Road to the South Terrace stop. That's shorter than ARS to Port Adelaide Station, still slightly longer time, and requires walking to the edge of Glenelg and from the edge of Adelaide.

As the OH line runs adjacent to the Gawler line, and the Belair line adjacent to the Seaford/Tonsley line, I would expect that if they are electrified, there would be crossovers to allow running on each other's lines (and hence through any future tunnel). I expect that making the tunnel(s) suitable for diesel would make them more expensive, so would probably not be done.
15 stops on the Glenelg line as opposed to 11 on the OH line to Port Adelaide...so yes it will take longer, but given the 4x extra stops, it is remarkably close in running time. Once again, if a CBD tunnel is constructed to accomodate the OH train, then it does weigh in heavy rails favour. Any idea of the OH train connecting to a proposed CBD tunnel though is pure speculation and has never been considered for whatever reason.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4507 Post by 1NEEDS2POST » Fri May 22, 2020 12:58 am

claybro wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 9:04 pm
15 stops on the Glenelg line as opposed to 11 on the OH line to Port Adelaide...so yes it will take longer, but given the 4x extra stops, it is remarkably close in running time. Once again, if a CBD tunnel is constructed to accomodate the OH train, then it does weigh in heavy rails favour. Any idea of the OH train connecting to a proposed CBD tunnel though is pure speculation and has never been considered for whatever reason.
Maybe it hasn't been considered because the future of of OH as heavy rail was in doubt.

If OH is electrified, even if OH goes into a CBD tunnel, Grange doesn't need to be removed. There's no reason a Grange train couldn't still terminate at ARS.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4508 Post by Nort » Fri May 22, 2020 8:57 am

Patrick_27 wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 4:59 pm
Nort wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 4:23 pm
Patrick_27 wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 3:20 pm


As far as I'm concerned, I want to see the remainder of the train network electrified before a CBD tunnel is even considered. If our state government can't get serious about electrifying the whole network, I don't see them ever getting serious about a CBD tunnel.
Flipping it around, taking plans like a CBD underground seriously would force things like the electrification of the network.
Yes, but let's look at this realistically, we can't afford for both to happen concurrently, nor can we afford for one to happen immediately before the other. The price tag on a OH/Belair electrification would be probably $1b in today's dollars, who knows what it will be in five years time, and a tunnel could cost us anywhere in the vicinity of $3-7b (if interstate costings are anything to go by. Remember, this is a PT project, we can't even afford to get the best version of a South Road upgrade (a tunnel) and all three major parties agree that South Road needs to happen. When the Federal Libs don't support funding PT projects for the states and the Lib state government doesn't take rail seriously, how can anyone expect it to get off the ground?
It's all about shifting the overton window of the discussion to one where public transport infrastructure is a high priority.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4509 Post by PD2/20 » Fri May 22, 2020 9:55 am

Nort wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 8:57 am
Patrick_27 wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 4:59 pm
Nort wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 4:23 pm


Flipping it around, taking plans like a CBD underground seriously would force things like the electrification of the network.
Yes, but let's look at this realistically, we can't afford for both to happen concurrently, nor can we afford for one to happen immediately before the other. The price tag on a OH/Belair electrification would be probably $1b in today's dollars, who knows what it will be in five years time, and a tunnel could cost us anywhere in the vicinity of $3-7b (if interstate costings are anything to go by. Remember, this is a PT project, we can't even afford to get the best version of a South Road upgrade (a tunnel) and all three major parties agree that South Road needs to happen. When the Federal Libs don't support funding PT projects for the states and the Lib state government doesn't take rail seriously, how can anyone expect it to get off the ground?
It's all about shifting the overton window of the discussion to one where public transport infrastructure is a high priority.
While the term 'Overton window' is a valid and useful concept in political theory and policy making, does its use in general and mainstream discussion actually promote the desired shifting of the Overton window re PT infrastructure? :wink:

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4510 Post by Patrick_27 » Fri May 22, 2020 4:45 pm

1NEEDS2POST wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 12:58 am
claybro wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 9:04 pm
15 stops on the Glenelg line as opposed to 11 on the OH line to Port Adelaide...so yes it will take longer, but given the 4x extra stops, it is remarkably close in running time. Once again, if a CBD tunnel is constructed to accomodate the OH train, then it does weigh in heavy rails favour. Any idea of the OH train connecting to a proposed CBD tunnel though is pure speculation and has never been considered for whatever reason.
Maybe it hasn't been considered because the future of of OH as heavy rail was in doubt.

If OH is electrified, even if OH goes into a CBD tunnel, Grange doesn't need to be removed. There's no reason a Grange train couldn't still terminate at ARS.
Yes, but I think you're forgetting the cost of doing that, with only one line operating diesel train services, there will be an increase in the cost of upkeep for those locomotives. Unless these trains are used for a renewed Barossa service which would justify having the facilities to maintain such trains, but that's a whole 'nother topic of discussion.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4511 Post by Spotto » Fri May 22, 2020 7:23 pm

Patrick_27 wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 4:45 pm
1NEEDS2POST wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 12:58 am
If OH is electrified, even if OH goes into a CBD tunnel, Grange doesn't need to be removed. There's no reason a Grange train couldn't still terminate at ARS.
Yes, but I think you're forgetting the cost of doing that, with only one line operating diesel train services, there will be an increase in the cost of upkeep for those locomotives. Unless these trains are used for a renewed Barossa service which would justify having the facilities to maintain such trains, but that's a whole 'nother topic of discussion.
The future of OH will in turn determine the future of Grange. If OH is electrified as heavy rail, Grange will either be electrified as well or will be closed. It's unlikely that Grange would be kept as a diesel line surrounded by electric lines. If OH is converted to trams then Grange will be too and expanded to wherever is deemed appropriate.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4512 Post by PD2/20 » Fri May 22, 2020 7:43 pm

Patrick_27 wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 4:45 pm
Yes, but I think you're forgetting the cost of doing that, with only one line operating diesel train services, there will be an increase in the cost of upkeep for those locomotives. Unless these trains are used for a renewed Barossa service which would justify having the facilities to maintain such trains, but that's a whole 'nother topic of discussion.
Many of the Dry Creek depot facilities such general workshops, car washing, interior cleaning and stabling areas are not specific to the diesel trains and are already or will be used for the electrics. Only the diesel shop and fuelling are confined to the diesel trains. I would anticipate that in coming years the size of the diesel fleet will be reduced as it comes to end of life (more so if OH is electrified) and the volume of diesel servicing will reduce. Although there might be some increase in cost, it probably won't be dramatic. Belair is likely to remain as diesel for some time.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4513 Post by SBD » Sat May 23, 2020 5:05 pm

PD2/20 wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 7:43 pm
Patrick_27 wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 4:45 pm
Yes, but I think you're forgetting the cost of doing that, with only one line operating diesel train services, there will be an increase in the cost of upkeep for those locomotives. Unless these trains are used for a renewed Barossa service which would justify having the facilities to maintain such trains, but that's a whole 'nother topic of discussion.
Many of the Dry Creek depot facilities such general workshops, car washing, interior cleaning and stabling areas are not specific to the diesel trains and are already or will be used for the electrics. Only the diesel shop and fuelling are confined to the diesel trains. I would anticipate that in coming years the size of the diesel fleet will be reduced as it comes to end of life (more so if OH is electrified) and the volume of diesel servicing will reduce. Although there might be some increase in cost, it probably won't be dramatic. Belair is likely to remain as diesel for some time.
I imagine that the future of the Belair metro line will be tied to much wider considerations. It's effectively a single line now, but if something like the GlobeLink east-of-the-hills bypass existed, then Belair could return to double track, and run more frequent services.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4514 Post by claybro » Sat May 23, 2020 11:03 pm

PD2/20 wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 7:43 pm
Patrick_27 wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 4:45 pm
Yes, but I think you're forgetting the cost of doing that, with only one line operating diesel train services, there will be an increase in the cost of upkeep for those locomotives. Unless these trains are used for a renewed Barossa service which would justify having the facilities to maintain such trains, but that's a whole 'nother topic of discussion.
Many of the Dry Creek depot facilities such general workshops, car washing, interior cleaning and stabling areas are not specific to the diesel trains and are already or will be used for the electrics. Only the diesel shop and fuelling are confined to the diesel trains. I would anticipate that in coming years the size of the diesel fleet will be reduced as it comes to end of life (more so if OH is electrified) and the volume of diesel servicing will reduce. Although there might be some increase in cost, it probably won't be dramatic. Belair is likely to remain as diesel for some time.
The diesels are unfortunately nearing the end of their life. Despite some pretty major refurbishments, they are prone to spontaneous fires, breakdowns and this will only increase. A major fire on one of the old "Red Hens" in the 90's spelt the final end of their use. It is not unlikely that once Gawler electrification is complete, any major problem with a 3000 series on the OH or Belair lineswill spell the end. If the Libs are in power, expect closure of OH and Belair, and the construction of bus only lanes on PortRoad.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4515 Post by Eurostar » Sun May 24, 2020 2:07 pm

Here is a subway proposal I have thought of. The subway would go south east from Ovingham to the Botanic Gardens then curve to head west under Grote or Flinders Street. Stations could possibly be around by Melbourne Street, East End, Town Hall.
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20200524_135545.jpg
My Subway proposal

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