News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

[PeFe]

The South Australian government has announced grants into research for more pumped hydro in the state.

From Renew Economy

“Future is storage:” SA govt pumps for four more hydro projects




The South Australia state government has declared the “future is renewable energy storage” as it announces support for four new pumped hydro projects in the wind and solar-rich upper Spencer Gulf region.

A day after announcing plans for a major 400MW, 1150MWh pumped hydro project in an old quarry in the Adelaide foothills, energy minister Tom Koutsantonis has announced $9 million in funding for another four big pumped hydro projects further north.

All are located reservoirs and disused mine sites near Whyalla, Port Augusta and Port Germein, and would add a total of about 750MW of generation capacity – and a massive 5,600MWh of storage – to the South Australian grid.

“Storage of renewable energy is the future and South Australia has entrenched itself as a hub for the development of large-scale storage projects,” Koutsantonis said in a statement.

“We want to see as many of these projects as possible developed in South Australia, and this funding will help these businesses accelerate the development of their pumped hydro projects.”

The large-scale pumped hydro projects add to a wave of battery storage installations, including the Tesla big battery (which is already puncturing holes in the gas cartel), and facilities at Wattle Point and Lincoln Gap, and the newly announced solar and battery storage facility at Snowtown.

The pumped hydro projects getting funding for studies from the government include Altura Group’s Goat Hill project, 12km west of Port Augusta, where it and Delta Electricity are looking at a pumped hydro project of 230MW in capacity and 1840MWh of storage.

Arrium, the Whyalla steel plant operator now owned by UK billionaire Sanjeev Gupta, is planning a 90MW/390MWh pumped hydro facility at the old Iron Duchess mine as part of its plans for 1GW of solar and storage.

Rise Renewables, chaired by former CEFC boss Oliver Yates, is looking at a 200-230MW/1600MWh pumped hydro project at the existing Baroota Reservoir, north-east of Port Germein, which is located next to high voltage transmission lines.

And EnergyAustralia, as previously foreshadowed, is looking at a 225MW/1770MWh facility at Cultana, north of Whyalla.

The payments are to be made out of the Renewable Technologies Fund, which is also backing the Tesla big battery, and the new Tesla virtual power plant, along with local micro-grids and other projects.

The announcement continues a flurry of projects unveiled by the state Labor government ahead of the forthcoming state election (its caretaker period begins in 10 days’ time), and on the anniversary of the last major power loss event in South Australia on February 8 last year.

In the past few days the government has announced the world’s biggest virtual power plant – 250MW of solar and 650MWh of battery storage on 50,000 homes to be implemented by Tesla, and Tilt’s plan for a 44MW solar farm, a 21MW/26MWh battery storage plant next to its Snowtown wind farm.

“The key to lowering power prices in South Australia is boosting competition, and these projects have the potential to dispatch cheap renewable energy when demand is high,” Koutsantonis said.

Full article : http://reneweconomy.com.au/future-stora ... cts-41345/

[claybro]

If nothing else, all of these projects will bring publicity to the state in energy and technology circles, which is a good thing. As far as usable power go however, large scale solar with storage, molten salt, wind, stored hydro etc have proved problematic internationally and come with their own environmental concerns. Unless the government comes clean on just how much diesel backup is being used for these schemes, then also the environmental benefits are open to question. With private backup diesel generation also in the mix, as well as the many large scale diesel generators imported by the state government, it may be impossible to judge. Hopefully with time, the problems are overcome to the point where diesel backup is not required, however it does concern me the limited lifespans of some of this technology and the disposal of the waste from all those batteries.

[PeFe]

As far as usable power go however, large scale solar with storage, molten salt, wind, stored hydro etc have proved problematic internationally and come with their own environmental concerns.

What enviromental concerns? Solar and wind are seen are "extremely clean" compared to fossil fuels. Imagine living next door to a coal fired power station or nuclear power station........would you have enviromental concerns then?

Pumped hydro is seen as extremely clean as well....do the people living close to Snowy Hydro scheme have huge enviromental concerns?

Concentrated solar is a slight "newer" technology but remember there already is a concentrated solar plant near Port Augusta (called Sun Drop farms)..any enviromental concerns from the locals there?
Yes the Aurora plant is in another league, much bigger, more "concentrated" energy focused on a single tower....will birds learn to avoid or can humans do something to encourage birds to avoid it......I sure there is a simlple solution.

50% percent of South Australia's energy comes from wind and solar, you dont need to look internationally, its happening here first....not over there (where everything is perceived to be better and the right way to do things)

With private backup diesel generation also in the mix, as well as the many large scale diesel generators imported by the state government, it may be impossible to judge.

Power generation (minute by minute) is public knowledge in this country, for example Renew Economy constantly updates a graph showing current power generation, source by source. (This is just one of many places this information is available)
The diesel generation appears as "liquid fuel" in the graph.......hardly used this summer so far.......

South Australia does rely on power from the interconnectors during heatwaves.....this will lessen as more solar generation comes online and will push the issue back to "after sunset" and thats when storage will come into play.

It may surprise people but New South Wales and Victoria can not generate enough electricity by themselves during extreme heatwaves.....both those states rely on interstate connectors adding to the supply in times of extreme demand (and both those states are dominated...ie 80-85% by coal generation)

There are current 20-25 new solar farms being built, or due to commence, in Australia in 2018....
Batteries are a "hot" topic from the boardroom to the lounge room.....the future is happening now....

[rev]

We will see how great this renewable energy production and battery storage solution is, when people's quarterly bills start coming in for the summer.
The Tesla battery has kept those market prices down apparently. Lets see if this passes on to the consumer, or if we keep getting ripped off.
If electricity bills are still high, and there's no significant reduction despite the announced/claimed significant reduction in those market prices, I foresee many tens of thousands of households trying to get in on the virtual power station scheme.

AGL is on a $1 billion profit too btw.

Personally I think it's time the government took more control of our power network, and that virtual power station they want to build, should be state run, and not put in the hands of private energy retailers.
Do it in partnership with Tesla to deliver the infrastructure.
We are getting ripped hard by energy retailers who are owned by foreign global corporations, whose only purpose is to turn a bigger and bigger profit. They don't care about energy security our a reliable network in South Australia, let alone whether people can afford to pay. They know you will pay, because you need electricity, it's a necessity we can't live without, so you will make sacrifices, like food, clothing for your kids, etc etc, to keep the lights on.
Its called corporate greed, and it's what happens when state assets are privatized.

[claybro]

What enviromental concerns? Solar and wind are seen are "extremely clean" compared to fossil fuels. Imagine living next door to a coal fired power station or nuclear power station........would you have enviromental concerns then?

Specifically the amount of energy used to mine, manufacture and install hundreds of wind turbines, and potentially thousands of solar panels. There are composite metals and some nasty chemicals used in manufacturing these units. All with a lifespan of what..20 years? Same with batteries. All of this stuff, can be potentially recycled, but at some point it all gets disposed of. Yes the energy produced is extremely clean, but the process used to get to the point of producing electricity and the materials involved is not completely without consequences.
As for imagining living near a coal fired or nuclear power station... there are many more people in SA living near wind turbines now, than either a coal fired or nuclear power station, and there are very definately concerns to the health impact by low frequency noise.

I'm not suggesting for a minute we should not explore these options for generating power, I am just concerned that we are not given the full cost or environmental picture by politicians or the renewable industry, which is receiving huge government (taxpayer) subsidy.

[Goodsy]

What enviromental concerns? Solar and wind are seen are "extremely clean" compared to fossil fuels. Imagine living next door to a coal fired power station or nuclear power station........would you have enviromental concerns then?

Specifically the amount of energy used to mine, manufacture and install hundreds of wind turbines, and potentially thousands of solar panels. There are composite metals and some nasty chemicals used in manufacturing these units. All with a lifespan of what..20 years? Same with batteries. All of this stuff, can be potentially recycled, but at some point it all gets disposed of. Yes the energy produced is extremely clean, but the process used to get to the point of producing electricity and the materials involved is not completely without consequences.
As for imagining living near a coal fired or nuclear power station... there are many more people in SA living near wind turbines now, than either a coal fired or nuclear power station, and there are very definately concerns to the health impact by low frequency noise.

I'm not suggesting for a minute we should not explore these options for generating power, I am just concerned that we are not given the full cost or environmental picture by politicians or the renewable industry, which is receiving huge government (taxpayer) subsidy.

There is no proof what so ever that wind turbine syndrome exists

[claybro]

You are absolutely correct. There is not hard evidence that windfarm syndrome exists in a physical sense, and yet as a physchological condition it is very real to those who suffer. Like most mental health issues it has to be managed. It is not a reason to stop all wind farms. It is a reason to stop those, who would have us believe that all renewable technology is completely benign and perhaps a little more balance is required by those making evangelical claims about renewable generation from all its sources.

[PeFe]

Specifically the amount of energy used to mine, manufacture and install hundreds of wind turbines, and potentially thousands of solar panels. There are composite metals and some nasty chemicals used in manufacturing these units. All with a lifespan of what..20 years? Same with batteries. All of this stuff, can be potentially recycled, but at some point it all gets disposed of. Yes the energy produced is extremely clean, but the process used to get to the point of producing electricity and the materials involved is not completely without consequences.

What about the "nasties" produced in the manufacture of your mobile phone? Do you have one of of those?

What about the "nasties" produced in the manufacture of televisions sets? Do you have a television set set?

What about the "nasties" produced in the manufacture of cars? Do you drive a car?

What about the "nasties" used in building materials? Do you live in a house or an apartment?

What about the "nasties" used in road construction? Do you ever use a road or freeway?

What about the "nasties" produced in the manufacture and use of aeroplanes? Do you ever use air transport?

there are many more people in SA living near wind turbines now, than either a coal fired or nuclear power station, and there are very definately concerns to the health impact by low frequency noise.

Low frequency sound did not arrive with the advent of wind farms.....it has been around since the "industrial" revolution ie the arrival of "generators".
It is also commonly heard with air-conditioners, cars, lawn mowers and numerous other manufactured "generating" equipment.

When you look for "windfarm syndrome" in the current medical journals, you just cant find it........cant find it in the British Lancet or The American Journal of Medicine or the Medical Journal of Australia...its just not there. You can find articles related to "people who have noise sensitivity" or people who develop pyschological problems around the same time as a wind farm is built in their area...but as for evidence linking wind farms specifically to a physical ailment.....no evidence exists. In fact South Australia should be "ground zero" for this problem, given the number of wind farms in the state, so where are the medical anecdotes from South Australian doctors?
Its obviously another world conspiracy where the "powers that be" are lying to us, denying us the truth about things like .....vaccinations, ("vaccinations cause autism") and the flat earth ("I can't see no curvature")

[rubberman]

You are absolutely correct. There is not hard evidence that windfarm syndrome exists in a physical sense, and yet as a physchological condition it is very real to those who suffer. Like most mental health issues it has to be managed. It is not a reason to stop all wind farms. It is a reason to stop those, who would have us believe that all renewable technology is completely benign and perhaps a little more balance is required by those making evangelical claims about renewable generation from all its sources.

That people develop real symptoms from phobias related to various forms of stimulus is acknowledged. It happens for other forms of infrastructure as well, for example, people do get ill from worrying about planes flying overhead, or the noise from trains. That's even if the noise levels are measurably within safe limits. Once people are convinced it's doing them harm, it's very hard to dissuade otherwise. So, I'd certainly not doubt that some people are distressed.

However, if we stopped building infrastructure on account of some people developing phobias, it would pose a serious problem for infrastructure provision.

In the case of electricity supply, the problem is a little stark. Coal plants are reaching the point where the simply cannot have their lives extended, no matter how much money is thrown at them. Financiers won't look at them, way too risky. So, what are we to do? Wait for the next couple of big power stations to shut down and have nothing? Or build something else?

I see lots of problems with renewables, but compared to nothing, or gas which is almost expensive because the Feds haven't insisted on domestic gas reservation, what's the alternative?

[rev]

What enviromental concerns? Solar and wind are seen are "extremely clean" compared to fossil fuels. Imagine living next door to a coal fired power station or nuclear power station........would you have enviromental concerns then?

Specifically the amount of energy used to mine, manufacture and install hundreds of wind turbines, and potentially thousands of solar panels. There are composite metals and some nasty chemicals used in manufacturing these units. All with a lifespan of what..20 years? Same with batteries. All of this stuff, can be potentially recycled, but at some point it all gets disposed of. Yes the energy produced is extremely clean, but the process used to get to the point of producing electricity and the materials involved is not completely without consequences.
As for imagining living near a coal fired or nuclear power station... there are many more people in SA living near wind turbines now, than either a coal fired or nuclear power station, and there are very definately concerns to the health impact by low frequency noise.

I'm not suggesting for a minute we should not explore these options for generating power, I am just concerned that we are not given the full cost or environmental picture by politicians or the renewable industry, which is receiving huge government (taxpayer) subsidy.

There’s all sorts of nasty byproducts from mining fossil fuels, not to mention the pollution created from burning them.
Of course there’s nasty byproducts from creating renewable energy infrastructure, but I’d say the offset for that is that instead of creating more pollution and environmental damage, we aren’t.

Personally I think the infrastructure being built and talked about now should have been done before the old power stations were shut down and demolished within explosives.

What I want to know as well is how many times did the state gov intervene with their new powers to stop loading shedding and what not, preventing black outs. Seems awefully convenient with all the hot spells we’ve had with many days above 40, and not a single major black out.

[PeFe]

What I want to know as well is how many times did the state gov intervene with their new powers to stop loading shedding and what not, preventing black outs. Seems awefully convenient with all the hot spells we’ve had with many days above 40, and not a single major black out.

There is no conspiracy, no "hidden" load shedding, all this stuff is "public information" in the public domain (like open internet sites dealing with power generation, issues etc)

Remember there is slightly more capacity this summer compared to last, more houses and businesses have solar, generating their own power till the sun goes down, and more wind capacity too.
Also the Hornsdale battery is 70% controlled by the South Australian government, 30% controlled by Neoen and they have been selling power every day.
As far as I can see from the electricity generation charts, Neoen charge and discharge the battery 3 times a day, selling electricity at peak times like late afternoon/early evening.

So far the South Australian government has not used the emergency generators (apart from testing) nor used their 70% of the Tesla big battery.

[rev]

What I want to know as well is how many times did the state gov intervene with their new powers to stop loading shedding and what not, preventing black outs. Seems awefully convenient with all the hot spells we’ve had with many days above 40, and not a single major black out.

There is no conspiracy, no "hidden" load shedding, all this stuff is "public information" in the public domain (like open internet sites dealing with power generation, issues etc)

Remember there is slightly more capacity this summer compared to last, more houses and businesses have solar, generating their own power till the sun goes down, and more wind capacity too.
Also the Hornsdale battery is 70% controlled by the South Australian government, 30% controlled by Neoen and they have been selling power every day.
As far as I can see from the electricity generation charts, Neoen charge and discharge the battery 3 times a day, selling electricity at peak times like late afternoon/early evening.

So far the South Australian government has not used the emergency generators (apart from testing) nor used their 70% of the Tesla big battery.

Yeh, not talking about conspiracies champ.
Talking about the fact the government gave the minister(Tom Koutsantonis I believe) special powers to keep the lights on.
How many times have those powers been enacted to keep the lights on in SA this summer?
You say they haven't used the diesel generators yet, even though there was news a while back that they had already been used several times.
You say they haven't used the tesla battery storage yet.

This summer has been hotter then last summer. But no major blackouts or load shedding has occurred. Why?

Victoria has had blackouts.
But South Australia, whose electricity situation was in a far more dire situation, hasn't.
Last year we had less intense heat, and we had several periods of load shedding.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-28/s ... ol/8393608

There you go, he has special powers that allows him to force electricity generators to provide power to the state when its needed, overriding AEMO.


So if it's true that we haven't had to use the battery storage, or the diesel generators, how have we managed to avoid load shedding during the several periods of extreme heat we've had this summer?
Has he used his special powers to ensure the lights stay on during those periods of extreme heat and demand?

I suspect we wont find out before the state election is done and dusted.
And I'm not being critical, I'm just curious to know, and I think we all have the right to know, what's going on. For me, if he has used those powers, good. It shows this state government doesn't just talk about standing up for our state, but DOES.

[bits]

What I want to know as well is how many times did the state gov intervene with their new powers to stop loading shedding and what not, preventing black outs. Seems awefully convenient with all the hot spells we’ve had with many days above 40, and not a single major black out.

There is no conspiracy, no "hidden" load shedding, all this stuff is "public information" in the public domain (like open internet sites dealing with power generation, issues etc)

Remember there is slightly more capacity this summer compared to last, more houses and businesses have solar, generating their own power till the sun goes down, and more wind capacity too.
Also the Hornsdale battery is 70% controlled by the South Australian government, 30% controlled by Neoen and they have been selling power every day.
As far as I can see from the electricity generation charts, Neoen charge and discharge the battery 3 times a day, selling electricity at peak times like late afternoon/early evening.

So far the South Australian government has not used the emergency generators (apart from testing) nor used their 70% of the Tesla big battery.

I believe you are wrong PeFe.
SA were running all their diesel generators flat out (276mw) beginning the afternoon of 18th Jan 2018, to prevent blackouts in SA and Vic.
The generators continued to run from memory through the entire 19th and 20th but at an output below max.

The diesel generators running was observable on NEM WATCH listed under liquid fuel for SA.
At the time the SA-Vic link had its max capacity reduced from 600 to 300mw due to "increased risk" to SA power security. AEMO now prevent SA from drawing too much from Vic on windy days as if the interconnect trips there will not be enough local SA generators online to ride it out.

I believe other RERT generators were also instructed to supply and others were instructed to be ready for a request to supply.
In the RERT supply list the diesel generators appear to be under the name "SAPN" reserve generation.

[SBD]

What I want to know as well is how many times did the state gov intervene with their new powers to stop loading shedding and what not, preventing black outs. Seems awefully convenient with all the hot spells we’ve had with many days above 40, and not a single major black out.

There is no conspiracy, no "hidden" load shedding, all this stuff is "public information" in the public domain (like open internet sites dealing with power generation, issues etc)

Remember there is slightly more capacity this summer compared to last, more houses and businesses have solar, generating their own power till the sun goes down, and more wind capacity too.
Also the Hornsdale battery is 70% controlled by the South Australian government, 30% controlled by Neoen and they have been selling power every day.
As far as I can see from the electricity generation charts, Neoen charge and discharge the battery 3 times a day, selling electricity at peak times like late afternoon/early evening.

So far the South Australian government has not used the emergency generators (apart from testing) nor used their 70% of the Tesla big battery.

Yeh, not talking about conspiracies champ.
Talking about the fact the government gave the minister(Tom Koutsantonis I believe) special powers to keep the lights on.
How many times have those powers been enacted to keep the lights on in SA this summer?
You say they haven't used the diesel generators yet, even though there was news a while back that they had already been used several times.
You say they haven't used the tesla battery storage yet.

This summer has been hotter then last summer. But no major blackouts or load shedding has occurred. Why?

Victoria has had blackouts.
But South Australia, whose electricity situation was in a far more dire situation, hasn't.
Last year we had less intense heat, and we had several periods of load shedding.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-28/s ... ol/8393608

There you go, he has special powers that allows him to force electricity generators to provide power to the state when its needed, overriding AEMO.


So if it's true that we haven't had to use the battery storage, or the diesel generators, how have we managed to avoid load shedding during the several periods of extreme heat we've had this summer?
Has he used his special powers to ensure the lights stay on during those periods of extreme heat and demand?

I suspect we wont find out before the state election is done and dusted.
And I'm not being critical, I'm just curious to know, and I think we all have the right to know, what's going on. For me, if he has used those powers, good. It shows this state government doesn't just talk about standing up for our state, but DOES.

There's an iPhone app (runs on iPads too, but not for Android) called PocketNEM that shows the output of each individual power station in the last 24 hours. The temporary generators have not been used in the last 48 hours, I don't recall if they were used on Wednesday afternoon which has fallen off the easy to access log.
Diesel burners that have been on include:

• Snuggery Friday 5:30-7pm
• Port Stanvac Thursday ]5-8pm and Friday around 4:30-6:30pm and 10pm.
• Lonsdale Thursday and 6:00-7:30pm and Friday 5-5:30
• Angaston Thursday 6-7:30, Friday 5-6:30

Snuggery is an oen cycle gas turbine similar to the government''s temporary ones, owned by Engie. The other three are banks of big diesel engines, all owned by Snowy Hydro.

[SBD]

What I want to know as well is how many times did the state gov intervene with their new powers to stop loading shedding and what not, preventing black outs. Seems awefully convenient with all the hot spells we’ve had with many days above 40, and not a single major black out.

There is no conspiracy, no "hidden" load shedding, all this stuff is "public information" in the public domain (like open internet sites dealing with power generation, issues etc)

Remember there is slightly more capacity this summer compared to last, more houses and businesses have solar, generating their own power till the sun goes down, and more wind capacity too.
Also the Hornsdale battery is 70% controlled by the South Australian government, 30% controlled by Neoen and they have been selling power every day.
As far as I can see from the electricity generation charts, Neoen charge and discharge the battery 3 times a day, selling electricity at peak times like late afternoon/early evening.

So far the South Australian government has not used the emergency generators (apart from testing) nor used their 70% of the Tesla big battery.

I believe you are wrong PeFe.
SA were running all their diesel generators flat out (276mw) beginning the afternoon of 18th Jan 2018, to prevent blackouts in SA and Vic.
The generators continued to run from memory through the entire 19th and 20th but at an output below max.

The diesel generators running was observable on NEM WATCH listed under liquid fuel for SA.

I believe other RERT generators were also instructed to supply and others were instructed to be ready for a request to supply.
In the RERT supply list the diesel generators appear to be under "SAPN" reserve generation.

NEM Watch does not distinguish between the government's diesel and privately owned diesel. What is the combined capacity of Snuggery, Port Stanvac, Lonsdale, Angaston and Port Lincoln (which all use diesel only)? There are a few other small generators on the grid too, but I think they only add up to 10 or 20MW between them.