News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

[bits]

NEM Watch does not distinguish between the government's diesel and privately owned diesel. What is the combined capacity of Snuggery, Port Stanvac, Lonsdale, Angaston and Port Lincoln (which all use diesel only)? There are a few other small generators on the grid too, but I think they only add up to 10 or 20MW between them.

https://www.aemo.com.au/Electricity/Nat ... Timetables

Jan 19 RERT Activation is where one or more reserve generators were asked to turn on.
https://www.aemo.com.au/-/media/Files/E ... 3-2018.pdf

Available RERT generators:
https://www.aemo.com.au/-/media/Files/E ... viders.pdf

[bits]

What is the combined capacity of Snuggery, Port Stanvac, Lonsdale, Angaston and Port Lincoln (which all use diesel only)? There are a few other small generators on the grid too, but I think they only add up to 10 or 20MW between them.

They are all part of the normal nem market and are not rert generators, so it was not them.

[SBD]

What is the combined capacity of Snuggery, Port Stanvac, Lonsdale, Angaston and Port Lincoln (which all use diesel only)? There are a few other small generators on the grid too, but I think they only add up to 10 or 20MW between them.

They are all part of the normal nem market and are not rert generators, so it was not them.

Yes they are, but NEM Watch reports them as diesel. I am failing to interpret the info in the RERT pages you posted links to work out whether and when the generators were actually turned on or demand reduced. It shows when they could have been, and the timeline for the providers to submit their claims if they did, but I can't find which RERT providers actually activated and when. Could you please decode it?

[bits]

The links is all that's left as most the notices have fallen off the log.
So we are basing this on my memory.
About 3:30pm aemo posted a notice that demand exceeded generation and they would be forced to intervene in the market if not corrected by 8pm.
8pm came and aemo posted they had intervened and requested multiple rert generators to supply until the afternoon of the 19th.
Nem watch was showing about 270mw liquid fuel for sa.

I believe on the afternoon of the 19th high winds meant aemo kept the rert intervention in place.

[Spurdo]

The thing I don't understand is why the Portland Smelter is signed up to the Demand Response (RERT)? Last time the power went off over there they had to spend around 500 million replacing the potlines because the metal had solidified. Same goes for anywhere else with a furnace (Intercast & Forge, Onesteel) as wouldn't switching off the furnaces suddenly cause extreme damage to the critical systems?

[Goodsy]

in other news, the 12 state owned generators permanent home will be at the Bolivar treatment plant

[SBD]

The thing I don't understand is why the Portland Smelter is signed up to the Demand Response (RERT)? Last time the power went off over there they had to spend around 500 million replacing the potlines because the metal had solidified. Same goes for anywhere else with a furnace (Intercast & Forge, Onesteel) as wouldn't switching off the furnaces suddenly cause extreme damage to the critical systems?

Possibly a controlled shutdown is OK if the furnace is emptied first. For OneSteel, we can't tell (unless you know more than I do) whether the offered reduction is from the furnace in Whyalla or the mines at Iron Baron.

[PD2/20]

NEM Watch does not distinguish between the government's diesel and privately owned diesel. What is the combined capacity of Snuggery, Port Stanvac, Lonsdale, Angaston and Port Lincoln (which all use diesel only)? There are a few other small generators on the grid too, but I think they only add up to 10 or 20MW between them.

Angaston 50MW
Lonsdale 20
Port Stanvac 58
Snuggery 63
Port Lincoln 74

Total diesel only 265MW

[SBD]

NEM Watch does not distinguish between the government's diesel and privately owned diesel. What is the combined capacity of Snuggery, Port Stanvac, Lonsdale, Angaston and Port Lincoln (which all use diesel only)? There are a few other small generators on the grid too, but I think they only add up to 10 or 20MW between them.

Angaston 50MW
Lonsdale 20
Port Stanvac 58
Snuggery 63
Port Lincoln 74

Total diesel only 265MW

So 11MW less than you saw on NEMWatch.
this article appears to be fairly negative towards diesel, and it says the government's turbines hadn't been used in January apart from testing. What that means about where the other generation you saw came from, I have no idea, unless they happened to "test" at that time to reduce embarrassment if it failed.

[bits]

For OneSteel, we can't tell (unless you know more than I do) whether the offered reduction is from the furnace in Whyalla or the mines at Iron Baron.

Whyalla steel works has 2x4.2mw(~8mw) private gas turbines. I assume the 8mw listed for rert is those gas turbines. Either that it can sell to the grid or reduce whyalla steel works load if the turbines are not already running at the time.
I do not believe it is suggesting that onesteel is offering a shutdown capacity of 8mw.

[bits]

Oh a copy of some of the AEMO wording for 1 notice.
I believe this came from 8:00pm EST on the Jan 18th:
"AEMO has entered into a reserve contract and may implement a AEMO Intervention Event by dispatching that reserve contract to maintain the power system in a reliable operating state during the following period of time;
1430 hrs to 1830 hrs. 19/01/2018
AEMO will issue a further advice if the reserve contract is activated."

https://www.aemo.com.au/-/media/Files/E ... 3-2018.pdf
Does mention the reserve contracts were activated.

I assumed the 270mw diesel was the Gov generators when this was happening but as said it could be the other normal NEM market generators in SA that run on diesel.
So I am unsure which RERT providers were activated.

[PeFe]

Talking about the fact the government gave the minister(Tom Koutsantonis I believe) special powers to keep the lights on.
How many times have those powers been enacted to keep the lights on in SA this summer?
You say they haven't used the diesel generators yet, even though there was news a while back that they had already been used several times.
You say they haven't used the tesla battery storage yet.

This summer has been hotter then last summer. But no major blackouts or load shedding has occurred. Why?

Victoria has had blackouts.
But South Australia, whose electricity situation was in a far more dire situation, hasn't.
Last year we had less intense heat, and we had several periods of load shedding.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-28/s ... ol/8393608

There you go, he has special powers that allows him to force electricity generators to provide power to the state when its needed, overriding AEMO.

I think you have misunderstood what powers Tom Koutsantonis has.....electricity generation in South Australia comes under the National Electricity Market administered by the Australian Energy Market Operator.
The new legislation gives the South Australian government executive powers over exempted electricity generation, nominated by the state government (ie the SA gov diesesl generators and the Tesla big battery) so basically the minister can dictate operations of these plants, whereas AMEO dictates the use of other electricity generation in the state.
Happy to be corrected if this is not the case (I do not believe the SA government has any powers over the gas generators etc..)

Victoria has had blackouts...yes because the heat "fried" various infrastructure, not because of lack of electricity generation.

I was not aware there were so many small diesel generators, this does make the "reading" of the electricity generation graphs harder ie..where exactly is this electricity being made.

As for the government diesel generators, I am slightly surprised we don't see them turned more often, if only for operational purposes to make sure everything is working correctly.

[PD2/20]

...
I was not aware there were so many small diesel generators, this does make the "reading" of the electricity generation graphs harder ie..where exactly is this electricity being made.

As for the government diesel generators, I am slightly surprised we don't see them turned more often, if only for operational purposes to make sure everything is working correctly.

Detailed information for individual generators for the 5 minute dispatch intervals or the 30 minute charging intervals is publicly available in files on the AEMO website. However I have found useful the graphical displays on the http://anero.id/energy/fossil-energy website which are derived from the AEMO data. That link gives the data for the last 24 hours either as % of registered capacity or as MW output. Below the graph display are check boxes that allow toggling of individual generating units or by state. The total of all units and the subtotal of all selected units can also be toggled. The codes and details of the generators are listed in a table below the check box panel.

Historic daily data can be accessed for example via a url of the form http://anero.id/energy/fossil-energy/2018/january/18 and monthly data (3hr averages) via http://anero.id/energy/fossil-energy/2018/january.

In particular checking the out put SA emergency generators SATGS1 (Lonsdale) and SATGN1 (Elizabeth) show that both were active in November while testing, and inactive since then apart from an hour each at 15 MW on Wed 7th Feb.

The aneroid website also has data on other types of generation.

[rev]

Talking about the fact the government gave the minister(Tom Koutsantonis I believe) special powers to keep the lights on.
How many times have those powers been enacted to keep the lights on in SA this summer?
You say they haven't used the diesel generators yet, even though there was news a while back that they had already been used several times.
You say they haven't used the tesla battery storage yet.

This summer has been hotter then last summer. But no major blackouts or load shedding has occurred. Why?

Victoria has had blackouts.
But South Australia, whose electricity situation was in a far more dire situation, hasn't.
Last year we had less intense heat, and we had several periods of load shedding.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-28/s ... ol/8393608

There you go, he has special powers that allows him to force electricity generators to provide power to the state when its needed, overriding AEMO.

I think you have misunderstood what powers Tom Koutsantonis has.....electricity generation in South Australia comes under the National Electricity Market administered by the Australian Energy Market Operator.
The new legislation gives the South Australian government executive powers over exempted electricity generation, nominated by the state government (ie the SA gov diesesl generators and the Tesla big battery) so basically the minister can dictate operations of these plants, whereas AMEO dictates the use of other electricity generation in the state.
Happy to be corrected if this is not the case (I do not believe the SA government has any powers over the gas generators etc..)

Victoria has had blackouts...yes because the heat "fried" various infrastructure, not because of lack of electricity generation.

I was not aware there were so many small diesel generators, this does make the "reading" of the electricity generation graphs harder ie..where exactly is this electricity being made.

As for the government diesel generators, I am slightly surprised we don't see them turned more often, if only for operational purposes to make sure everything is working correctly.

Did you even read the article? The heading even says it.
The powers the minister now has where powers that existed when there was a state of emergency, ie to direct power geneatros(ie the companies running the power stations) to switch on and provide the needed power, even if AEMO says otherwise.
These powers have been extended into non state of emergency times, in order to prevent a state of emergency such as the whole state being blacked out.

It’s got nothing to do with the govs diesel generators or Tesla battery.


So again, with the extreme heat and obviously extra demand that that induces, we haven’t had a major or widespread blackout this summer. Why?
You say we haven’t used the diesel generators or battery backup. News was a while ago that the diesel backups had been put in use a few times to prevent a blackout.

So if we haven’t used any of it as you say, how many times has the minister used his new power?

[PeFe]

Did you even read the article? The heading even says it.
The powers the minister now has where powers that existed when there was a state of emergency, ie to direct power geneatros(ie the companies running the power stations) to switch on and provide the needed power, even if AEMO says otherwise.
These powers have been extended into non state of emergency times, in order to prevent a state of emergency such as the whole state being blacked out.

I stand corrected, Rev , you are right, the Minister does have power to dictate operating terms to generators in South Australia.

So again, with the extreme heat and obviously extra demand that that induces, we haven’t had a major or widespread blackout this summer. Why?

Because more generation is available.....(and maybe demand is lower than expected). I do not know the exact figures, but I would say there is more capacity to generate electricity in January 2018 compared to January 2017. The Pelican gas plant is up and running at capacity (unlike Feb 2017), there is more solar and wind (increase in rooftop and business solar plus 1 more wind farm) plus Tesla battery plus government diesel generators.

And maybe, the business of power generation during heatwaves is better managed, the Feb 2017 blackout caused by load shedding was a major embarrassment for AMEO, they took their eye off the ball, ignoring extreme weather forecasts and underestimating power requirements.....failing to demand Pelican Point add more power to the network to prevent blackouts (when there was power available).
No wonder the South Australian government reacted with such draconian legislation......

You say we haven’t used the diesel generators or battery backup. News was a while ago that the diesel backups had been put in use a few times to prevent a blackout.

And other people have quoted AMEO reports saying that the government diesel generators have been tested (but not brought into play yet during heatwaves) and you continually assert that they have been used....
Smaller non-government generators certainly have been used.

So if we haven’t used any of it as you say, how many times has the minister used his new power?

Well if you believe the media......zero, because no media outlet has reported it and no AMEO document has indicated this has happened....
Rev, you are start to sound like a "conspiracy theorist"...."the Minister has used these new powers and NO-ONE HAS TOLD US!!! WHATS GOING ON?"