News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

[rev]

The initial grant will up to $6,000, the last time I saw battery prices (ie Tesla) the quotes were around $8,000-$10,000. If you only have to fork out 2K.......

Are you sure about that? or do you have to pay the full amount, and then get $6k back from the state government? Because if that's the case, take up wont be very high, and it will be slow. If on the other hand it is as you suggest...and people only have to pay ~$2k out of their own pocket and the government chips in the remaining $6k..

These batteries will probably last 20-30 years (if they are a quality product and since Sonnen is German, I am going to invoke the stereotype of "quality German product" cliche)

German engineering is over rated.

[SBD]

The initial grant will up to $6,000, the last time I saw battery prices (ie Tesla) the quotes were around $8,000-$10,000. If you only have to fork out 2K.......

Are you sure about that? or do you have to pay the full amount, and then get $6k back from the state government? Because if that's the case, take up wont be very high, and it will be slow. If on the other hand it is as you suggest...and people only have to pay ~$2k out of their own pocket and the government chips in the remaining $6k..

I'd expect the installers/vendors who are large enough to wear it to extend credit such that an end-user/buyer would pay the gap up-front as a deposit, and the vendor would handle all of the paperwork (planning approval if required, grid connection application, subsidy application) and receive the subsidy as the final stage of their payment for the installation.

But "what's in it for me" to provide rent-free space in/near my garage and (part-)capital for someone else to own and run a distributed virtual power storage system? What do I personally gain for participating in this system? I understand the grid-wide benefits, but not the personal incentive.

[Goodsy]

These batteries will probably last 20-30 years (if they are a quality product and since Sonnen is German, I am going to invoke the stereotype of "quality German product" cliche)

German engineering is over rated.

If German engineering is over rated then there's no quality engineering standard left in the world, everything would be considered sub standard compared to some mythical standard that doesn't exist.

But they won't last 20-30 years, battery technology is moving faster than that

[Nort]

But "what's in it for me" to provide rent-free space in/near my garage and (part-)capital for someone else to own and run a distributed virtual power storage system? What do I personally gain for participating in this system? I understand the grid-wide benefits, but not the personal incentive.

Under the scheme proposed by Labor IIRC I believe the outcome was reduced power costs? So a participant would still come out ahead.

Clearly there is some benefit being provided to those who participate, otherwise no-one would join up. My main qualm about it being optional is that a major reason for the government subsidies is to help increase stability of the power grid through distributed storage that can kick in and prevent/limit outages. If people aren't participating then what is the logic for taxpayer subsidy of them?

[PeFe]

According to the Sonnen website the expected battery life is 20 years (yes technology might move on, but the battery will still do it's job!)
And their guarantee is 10 years.

https://sonnen.com.au/sonnenbatterie/

[claybro]

But "what's in it for me" to provide rent-free space in/near my garage and (part-)capital for someone else to own and run a distributed virtual power storage system? What do I personally gain for participating in this system? I understand the grid-wide benefits, but not the personal incentive.

Under the scheme proposed by Labor IIRC I believe the outcome was reduced power costs? So a participant would still come out ahead.

Clearly there is some benefit being provided to those who participate, otherwise no-one would join up. My main qualm about it being optional is that a major reason for the government subsidies is to help increase stability of the power grid through distributed storage that can kick in and prevent/limit outages. If people aren't participating then what is the logic for taxpayer subsidy of them?

More does need to be done to explain "ownership" of the virtual power gid and the energy it produces surplus to an individuals requirements. In the past, where governments constructed power plants, they reaped revenue from the consumers initially, then pocketed billions in the sale of the plants. The taxpayers initial investment was repaid many times over. Under the subsidy arrangement, the government (tax payers) are again paying to "construct" a virtual power plant, the question is, does the taxpayer get any return on the surplus power produced and re-distributed? Is the electricity consumed free of charge when accessing only stored power? Is there any liability for equipment failure, fire/electrocution etc from these systems? And who pays in 20 years when we have to do it all again?
I am in no way disparaging battery storage, which I believe is the way of the future, however, if the government is going to be subsidising these systems, there should be some onus to be connected to the grid, in the same way the original home solar systems fed into the grid to reduce consumer power bills. If you don't want to connect-pay for it yourself, and live bill free for 20 years.

[PeFe]

Looks like the Aurora solar project must must be gearing up to start construcion (if this article is any guide)

From In Daily

SA jobs promised as solar thermal project boosts local manufacturing

Global solar thermal company SolarReserve is working on a deal with local manufacturer Heliostat SA to build more than 12,800 tracking mirrors for its 150MW Aurora project near Port Augusta.


An artist's impression of the Aurora plant to be built by SolarReserve in South Australia.

The agreement will utilise skills and technology initially developed in South Australia for the automotive industry, with Heliostat SA saying the deal could create up to 200 jobs, many of them highly-skilled.

SolarReserve today announced a Memorandum of Understanding with Heliostat SA for the development of plans and processes for the supply, fabrication and assembly of its SR96 heliostat assemblies.

The two companies are working together to complete the final agreement.
Heliostats are the large tracking mirrors in a solar thermal power station, which follow the sun throughout the day and precisely reflect and concentrate sunlight onto a receiver.

Each SR96 heliostat mirror will include 96sq m of glass plus steel supports and electric drives resulting in a field of mirrors with more than a million square metres of surface area.

The heliostats at the Aurora project will reflect and concentrate sunlight onto a central receiver on top of a tower. The process heats molten salt, pumped to the top of the tower and flowing through the receiver, to 565 degrees Celsius.

Full article : https://indaily.com.au/news/business/20 ... facturing/

[PeFe]

Solar is increasingly dominating power supply in the middle of the day. Also further emphasises the need for ( a lot) more storeage.

From Renew Economy

Solar takes centre stage in South Australia, becoming No 1 energy source in middle of day


Bungala Solar Farm

South Australia is entering a new phase of its transition towards a 100 per cent renewable energy grid, with solar starting to become the biggest contributor to the state’s grid in the middle of the day.

Three times over the past week, the share of solar – both rooftop and utility-scale – has been at around 40 per cent during the midday hours, relegating gas and wind, which had previously fought over the number one spot, to second and third position.

South Australia’s more than 800MW of rooftop solar has often contributed one-third of the state’s power output for brief periods, but what is new is the addition of the 110MW first stage of the Bungala solar farm, which will be the biggest in the country once the second 110MW stage is complete next year.

Full article : https://reneweconomy.com.au/solar-takes ... day-68689/

[PeFe]

Good article on the Tesla big battery at Jamestown. Details about construction costs and revenue plus a myriad of other details.
From Renew Economy

Revealed: True cost of Tesla big battery, and its government contract

New light has been shed on one of the great mysteries of the Australian electricity sector – the actual cost, contract details and merchant revenues of the most exciting new addition to the main grid in the last decade, the Tesla big battery.

Since the world’s biggest lithium-ion battery – officially known as the Hornsdale Power Reserve – was switched on by Tesla founder and CEO Elon Musk late last year, after being delivered in less than 100 days, the battery has stunned observers and the market operator with its speed, accuracy and versality.

Little was known, however, about the financial details of the battery’s construction cost, and contract details with the South Australian government, or its revenue performance to date – although numerous different analyses have been provided by independent observers here and here, and by the market operator itself.

Now, the real numbers – along with some hitherto unreleased power purchase agreements for wind and solar plants – have been revealed in the share registration document lodged by the battery’s owner, the French renewable energy developer Neoen, for its planned initial public offering and stock exchange listing.

Full article : https://reneweconomy.com.au/revealed-tr ... act-66888/

[PeFe]

More South Australian renewable energy news sourced from Renew Economy.
This time an article about the 30 mw battery connected to the Wattle Point wind farm on Yorke Peninsula.
This new battery can "isolate" Yorke Peninsula from the grid should a state wide blackout occur and add 30 mw of power to the grid (very useful for the upcoming summer)

South Australia’s second big battery takes peninsula off grid, as tests continue

South Australia’s second big battery – the Dalrymple North installation on the Yorke Peninsula south of Adelaide – has not quite completed its commissioning, but it is already showing some interesting innovations.

On Wednesday, it went into “islanding” mode – taking a large part of the Yorke Peninsula “off the grid” and using the battery to supply the local consumers. It appears to have gone well.

The Dalrymple battery – the result of a long-running project known as ESCRI, or Energy Storage for Commercial Renewable Integration – is expected to come into service “very soon”, according to Electranet, the state’s transmission company that owns the project.

The first big battery – the Tesla 100MW/129MWh installation next to Neoen Australia’s Hornsdale wind farm north of Adelaide – has been operating for nearly 10 months, after a less than 100-day installation, and has already demonstrated its speed and versatility, its valuable grid services, and an ability to puncture some of the market gouging by gas generators.

The Dalrymple facility is a different set-up, with 30MW/8MWh designed to provide grid balancing services, and also to enable the local area – which sits at the end of the network – to go into “islanding mode”, and keep the lights in case of problems elsewhere.

Full article : https://reneweconomy.com.au/south-austr ... nue-83320/

[claybro]

Still confused as to what-if any useful power these large scale storage plants offer the grid. My understanding was that the batteries act to level out the power fluctuations due to inconsistencies in windo and solar generation? These articles lead the reader to believe that the batteries are able to prove x-mw of power over an extended period ie at night or in windless conditions. ("Yorke Peninsula can be isolated from the grid in the event of a state wide blackout"). If this is the case- then great, but if the battery only exists to provide short term power whilst the system switches to gas or coal fired power overnight, then it really hasn't solved the issue of how to provide power at night or on cloudy windless days...so how on earth are we to go 100% renewable?

[Aidan]

Still confused as to what-if any useful power these large scale storage plants offer the grid.

Cheaper power at the times people use it!

What they're not intended to do is to enable us to reach 100% renewables. To do that is a lot harder than getting it up to 80%; We'll need a massive overbuild of renewables, which only makes sense if they're very cheap AND there are industrial users willing to take advantage of the cheap power when it's available but not demanding much power at other times. Or possibly we could keep using as to generate some of our electricity but get the gas from renewable sources - but is there any point doing that when the rest of our gas comes from fossil sources?

[Jaymz]

There's probably no doubt that these large scale solar farms being installed or soon to be installed should bring down electricity prices by those using the grid.

However, with regards to solar installed on individual houses I always seem to come up with this question....... If more and more people are getting it installed
and no longer using power from the grid (good for them), prices then have to increase for the people left on the grid i.e Utility companies having less and less
customers. They will not be willing to cop a reduction in revenue and profits, so will simply divide it up between less people (prices increase for them). This might
be a simplistic view, but it sounds pretty logical to me.

For me, the only way to reduce prices for everyone is to increase supply by using cheaper methods for generation. Solar for exapmple has a large outlay for installation
and construction, but you'd imagine the costs would be quite low from there on in.

[SBD]

There's probably no doubt that these large scale solar farms being installed or soon to be installed should bring down electricity prices by those using the grid.

However, with regards to solar installed on individual houses I always seem to come up with this question....... If more and more people are getting it installed
and no longer using power from the grid (good for them), prices then have to increase for the people left on the grid i.e Utility companies having less and less
customers. They will not be willing to cop a reduction in revenue and profits, so will simply divide it up between less people (prices increase for them). This might
be a simplistic view, but it sounds pretty logical to me.

For me, the only way to reduce prices for everyone is to increase supply by using cheaper methods for generation. Solar for exapmple has a large outlay for installation
and construction, but you'd imagine the costs would be quite low from there on in.

It might lead to an increase in the "supply charge" if that does not represent the full cost of providing the "poles and wires" due to there being less electricity to average the hidden cost over. On the other hand, the actual wires won't need upgrading as often to supply the peak afternoon airconditioning load.

The main offset of the home generation (or any other "cheap" power on the network) would be to reduce the times at which the most expensive peaking generators (which are typically the diesel engines I think) are needed to be turned on. The state government's temporary generators should not be used at all, except for the need to stir the fuel tanks, and the Snowy Hydro diesel generators at Lonsdale, Port Stanvac and Angaston not much more.

Ultimately, home generation works on the network as a reduction in load (assuming that most home systems are small enough to not contribute significant electricity past the end of their street if it ever leaves the house) so over time, the pool of "big generators" will scale to match the actual load. Having a private market probably means the market is "more efficient" and the excess generation capacity over demand will be tighter than it would be in a purely state-owned system, with more slack ("fat") in the system.

[PeFe]

Still confused as to what-if any useful power these large scale storage plants offer the grid.

Batteries offer the grid the quickest path to stability during times of "instability".
If a large power generator (this can be coal, gas, wind or solar) trips out suddenly from the grid (one moment power is being pumped into the grid, the next minute it disappears) then "instability" occurs within the grid (frequency control issues).
This is the first thing that needs to be fixed......before batteries the supervising operator at the "offending" power source would email the "backup" power generator ( I believe the way the system works is that there is "buddy" system of power generation, one power source is designated as "backup" at all times) The buddy generator then inserts enough power into the grid to stabilize it. I believe this process usually took 15-30 minutes and the power generators charged outrageous prices for the services ($24,000 per mw/h?)
Once the grid has been stabilized then the issue of the "missing" power is addressed and sourced from the backup generator (or thrown open to the market to supply)

The Tesla battery monitors the the National Electricity Market 24/7 (ie the grid) and can immediately recognize instability issues, acting to "fix" these issues in a mili-second by pumping the correct amount of electricity into the grid, maintaining frequency. The Tesla battery charges far less for these services than the power generators used to so now the Tesla battery is "no 1 problem solver" for these issues. This is what has really excited the power industry and the rest of the world will probably follow this model.

Here is a recent article where the Tesla battery helped avert load shedding in South Australia........about 2/3 thirds way into the article.
https://www.afr.com/news/close-call-in- ... 830-h14rfq

And of course batteries add power to the grid at any time they deem the prices are right.