News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

Threads relating to transport, water, etc. within the CBD and Metropolitan area.
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SBD
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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#391 Post by SBD » Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:35 am

Spurdo wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:39 pm
Hmm, after the purchase of those generators and the deal with that solar thermal plant, I'd have thought that the Greens/Labor supporters would have been calling for Jay's resignation for even dare entertaining the thought of investing in "big bad eeeevil baseload generation" as those types seem to have some bizarre hatred for on-demand energy.
Isn't "baseload" the opposite of "on demand"? I thought baseload is created by generators that take hours to spin up or down, and is the reason why we have/had J-tarriff to shift load to overnight.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#392 Post by Nort » Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:43 am

Spurdo wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:39 pm
Hmm, after the purchase of those generators and the deal with that solar thermal plant, I'd have thought that the Greens/Labor supporters would have been calling for Jay's resignation for even dare entertaining the thought of investing in "big bad eeeevil baseload generation" as those types seem to have some bizarre hatred for on-demand energy.
:roll:

The fact that didn't occur should suggest to you that your view of us is actually some straw man nonsense. :)

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#393 Post by PeFe » Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:14 pm

Article from Renew Economy about low grid demand in the middle of Sunday October 21, and the relevance to solar power.
South Australia grid demand hits record low as solar accounts for 54%

South Australia has recorded another record low for demand from grid-scale electricity generators, as solar accounted for some 54 per cent of total customer demand in the state on Sunday.

In a day of records that highlights the rapid changes on Australia’s main grid (see the 1,000MW output from large scale solar), demand in South Australia fell to a new low of 595.4MW, according to Dylan McConnell, from the Climate and Energy College in Melbourne.

McConnell sent through this graph above (and below). The latest record occurred just after noon (NEM time, which is Queensland time as it doesn’t take into account daylight saving), and came at the same time that solar contributed some 54 per cent of local demand.

Most of that solar came from rooftop installations, so even though much of it might have been consumed at home – various appliances, pool pumps, air conditioning and the like – that demand is not visible to the grid.

The Australian Energy Market Operator has been raising concerns about the impact of this for some time now. It predicts that within the next few years, the amount produced by rooftop solar may exceed grid demand in places like South Australia and Western Australia, and is worried about the consequences.

That is underpinning its push to be able to “co-ordinate” distributed energy, looking for more inverters and battery storage technology that can be linked and “orchestrated” as needs arise by the market operator.

Full article : https://reneweconomy.com.au/south-austr ... -54-27054/

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#394 Post by rev » Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:02 pm

Nuclear scientists suggest reactor to power desalination plant for Eyre Peninsula farming water
Peter Jean, Senior Federal Political Reporter, The Advertiser
October 23, 2018 8:00pm
Subscriber only

PM says nuclear would be considered if investment case stacks up
People of Kimba and Hawker disrupted by delay in picking a site

AN Eyre Peninsula nuclear power plant could provide the state with cheap electricity and support a desalination plant which would supply water to a new agricultural irrigation scheme, new analysis shows.

Nuclear scientists, from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in the US, have prepared a “white paper” analysis for Australian Conservatives Senator Cory Bernardi on possible South Australian involvement with the nuclear fuel cycle. Senator Bernardi will release the paper on Wednesday for community discussion.

The paper backs the construction of nuclear reactors, which would be cooled with sea water and add up to 1500 megawatts of electricity to SA’s power grid.

“A significant fraction of the electricity generation from a nuclear power plant in SA could be devoted to the production of desalinated water (via reverse osmosis), which in turn could be used to develop farming of high-value crops on semi-arid, currently under-utilised land in the Eyre Peninsula,’’ the analysis said.

The water would be piped to farms in a 5800km square kilometre region where high-value crops, such as potatoes, could be grown, it stated.

The paper was written by MIT Centre for Advanced Nuclear Energy Systems Professor Jacopo Buongiorno and two PhD candidates.

One of the MIT team’s arguments in favour of nuclear power is that it can help slash carbon emissions.

Senator Bernardi doesn’t support anti-carbon policies but said nuclear energy could provide much needed baseload power for SA and replace wind and solar farms, which only had operational lives of a few decades. “We’re going to have to confront that in the next 20 years. Nuclear is the only proven solution,’’ he said.

Senator Bernardi has introduced a bill into the federal Parliament to repeal the national ban on nuclear power plants in Australia.

The white paper backed the nuclear fuel cycle Royal Commission’s recommendation that SA establish an international storage facility for nuclear waste.

The MIT team suggested SA establish an interim spent nuclear fuel surface repository, which could accept waste from other nuclear countries within three to five years.

Revenue from the storage facility could be used to fund the plant build, it found.

A desalination plant would ensure a steady stream of revenue for the nuclear reactors.

“In turn the desalination plant using nuclear electricity would be emission free and could operate 24/7 with high reliability,” it stated. It said additional nuclear power and desalination capacity would be added as demand grew.
https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/sou ... e1b3469d61

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#395 Post by PeFe » Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:10 pm

rev wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:02 pm
Nuclear scientists suggest reactor to power desalination plant for Eyre Peninsula farming water
Peter Jean, Senior Federal Political Reporter, The Advertiser
October 23, 2018 8:00pm
Subscriber only

PM says nuclear would be considered if investment case stacks up
People of Kimba and Hawker disrupted by delay in picking a site

AN Eyre Peninsula nuclear power plant could provide the state with cheap electricity and support a desalination plant which would supply water to a new agricultural irrigation scheme, new analysis shows.

Nuclear scientists, from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in the US, have prepared a “white paper” analysis for Australian Conservatives Senator Cory Bernardi on possible South Australian involvement with the nuclear fuel cycle. Senator Bernardi will release the paper on Wednesday for community discussion.

The paper backs the construction of nuclear reactors, which would be cooled with sea water and add up to 1500 megawatts of electricity to SA’s power grid.

“A significant fraction of the electricity generation from a nuclear power plant in SA could be devoted to the production of desalinated water (via reverse osmosis), which in turn could be used to develop farming of high-value crops on semi-arid, currently under-utilised land in the Eyre Peninsula,’’ the analysis said.

The water would be piped to farms in a 5800km square kilometre region where high-value crops, such as potatoes, could be grown, it stated.

The paper was written by MIT Centre for Advanced Nuclear Energy Systems Professor Jacopo Buongiorno and two PhD candidates.

One of the MIT team’s arguments in favour of nuclear power is that it can help slash carbon emissions.

Senator Bernardi doesn’t support anti-carbon policies but said nuclear energy could provide much needed baseload power for SA and replace wind and solar farms, which only had operational lives of a few decades. “We’re going to have to confront that in the next 20 years. Nuclear is the only proven solution,’’ he said.

Senator Bernardi has introduced a bill into the federal Parliament to repeal the national ban on nuclear power plants in Australia.

The white paper backed the nuclear fuel cycle Royal Commission’s recommendation that SA establish an international storage facility for nuclear waste.

The MIT team suggested SA establish an interim spent nuclear fuel surface repository, which could accept waste from other nuclear countries within three to five years.

Revenue from the storage facility could be used to fund the plant build, it found.

A desalination plant would ensure a steady stream of revenue for the nuclear reactors.

“In turn the desalination plant using nuclear electricity would be emission free and could operate 24/7 with high reliability,” it stated. It said additional nuclear power and desalination capacity would be added as demand grew.
https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/sou ... e1b3469d61
Ahhh the the old nuclear power plant chestnut.......these suggestions appear with such regularity and they all say the same thing "nuclear power will provide cheap electricity" but you know what...no-one ever quotes the cost of plant construction or the price (per mwh) of the wholesale price of the electricity (so that you can compare to solar/wind/coal/gas etc).

And neither are the running costs of nuclear plants mentioned once established ,nor the cost of hundreds of staff to run the place, plus a HUGE secuirty bill that will last the life of the plant (and then some)

And if you really want to know more about costs of modern nuclear plants...then google (and read all the news articles) about Point Hinkley nuclear plant in the UK. Original build cost A$35 billion, latest official estimate A$40 billion, unofficial guestimate of final cost A$50 billion and it's running 2 years late with the build!

The Australian proposal (fantasy) is for a plant producing 1500mw of electricity...well taking Point Hinkley as a guide (3200mw plant) then this proposal should cost around 20 - 25 billion Australian dollars.......

And Cori Bernardi really is a tosser
nuclear energy could provide much needed baseload power for SA and replace wind and solar farms, which only had operational lives of a few decades. “We’re going to have to confront that in the next 20 years. Nuclear is the only proven solution,’’ he said.
No Cori, wind and solar farms will be in South Australia for a very very long time.......if a wind turbine breaks, then you install a new more efficient one,
if a solar panel cracks then you replace it.....its not rocket science, but obviously beyond Cori's small brain.

And if South Australia wanted to pay for 1500mw of pumped hydro (4-5 hours duration) the my guestimate of current costs is around 2 billion dollars (based on current SA pumped hydro costings)

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#396 Post by Spurdo » Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:18 pm

Well I’d much rather they build nuclear than intermittent crap like wind & solar PV but that’s just my opinion.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#397 Post by rhino » Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:36 pm

Thanks for that PeFe, good response.
cheers,
Rhino

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#398 Post by [Shuz] » Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:30 pm

Spurdo wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:18 pm
Well I’d much rather they build nuclear than intermittent crap like wind & solar PV but that’s just my opinion.
Go back to the 1950s where you belong.
Any views and opinions expressed are of my own, and do not reflect the views or opinions of any organisation of which I have an affiliation with.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#399 Post by claybro » Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:49 pm

[Shuz] wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:30 pm
Spurdo wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:18 pm
Well I’d much rather they build nuclear than intermittent crap like wind & solar PV but that’s just my opinion.
Go back to the 1950s where you belong.
Nuclear is still the only way most of Western Europe has any hope of reducing their carbon output. Even greener than green Germany sucks happily on French nuclear power. -So not quite the 50's yet, and nuclear as with coal will not only be around for decades yet, it appears to be expanding in use worldwide.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#400 Post by Goodsy » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:20 pm

Nuclear is the future, but not with current reactor designs. Renewabls + Pumped Hydro should be the stop gap between now and Gen 4 reactors, or fusion

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#401 Post by SBD » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:56 pm

I'm OK with discussing nuclear power, but I also think that this proposal is very flawed, and suspect that the right time may have passed.
  • 1500MW is more than the total load of electricity in SA much of the time
  • Eyre Peninsula is identified as a good spot for more wind farms, but the grid is not strong enough to install them past Whyalla
  • I'd like to see development of the kind of self-contained units used in submarines. They'd be great as drop-in power sources for remote communities where the grid doesn't reach.
  • As someone else said, when a turbine or panel fails, it's a small loss in capacity until it's replaced
  • The life of any power plant is "only" a few decades.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#402 Post by Goodsy » Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:05 pm

SBD wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:56 pm
I'm OK with discussing nuclear power, but I also think that this proposal is very flawed, and suspect that the right time may have passed.
  • 1500MW is more than the total load of electricity in SA much of the time
  • Eyre Peninsula is identified as a good spot for more wind farms, but the grid is not strong enough to install them past Whyalla
  • I'd like to see development of the kind of self-contained units used in submarines. They'd be great as drop-in power sources for remote communities where the grid doesn't reach.
  • As someone else said, when a turbine or panel fails, it's a small loss in capacity until it's replaced
  • The life of any power plant is "only" a few decades.
Does Australia even have any remote communities that could even use a reactor like that? the S9G Reactor on a Virginia class submarine is 150MW

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#403 Post by Spurdo » Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:09 pm

[Shuz] wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:30 pm
Go back to the 1950s where you belong.
Why so hostile, It’s just my opinion I’m sure you have your own doesn’t mean I’m going to chimp out and tell you to “piss off to Denmark” or anything if you love wind farms & stuff, i’m Simply saying that intermittent forms of power generation are, in my opinion, inferior to dispatchable, synchronous generation. After all, baseload generation seems to have worked very well and has pretty much been in use since the invention of the modern electricity grid, meanwhile intermittent renewable generation, while being cheap requires other infrastructure like energy storage, synchronous condensers and other systems to maintain grid stability. Also intermittent generation, during prolonged bad conditions requires things like demand response/demand curtailment which are really not compatible in a first world electricity grid where we have facilities such as foundries, Aluminium smelters, paper mills & other energy intensive facilities with which switching the power off at random intervals for long periods constantly is extremely detrimental, not only to the financial viability of these sites but also the mission critical infrastructure within these facilities.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#404 Post by Goodsy » Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:32 pm

Spurdo wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:09 pm
[Shuz] wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:30 pm
Go back to the 1950s where you belong.
Why so hostile, It’s just my opinion I’m sure you have your own doesn’t mean I’m going to chimp out and tell you to “piss off to Denmark” or anything if you love wind farms & stuff, i’m Simply saying that intermittent forms of power generation are, in my opinion, inferior to dispatchable, synchronous generation. After all, baseload generation seems to have worked very well and has pretty much been in use since the invention of the modern electricity grid, meanwhile intermittent renewable generation, while being cheap requires other infrastructure like energy storage, synchronous condensers and other systems to maintain grid stability. Also intermittent generation, during prolonged bad conditions requires things like demand response/demand curtailment which are really not compatible in a first world electricity grid where we have facilities such as foundries, Aluminium smelters, paper mills & other energy intensive facilities with which switching the power off at random intervals for long periods constantly is extremely detrimental, not only to the financial viability of these sites but also the mission critical infrastructure within these facilities.
Sanjeev Gupta is switching Whyalla to renewables, parroting Tony Abbott's lies about not being about to run smelters or manufacturing off renewable energy is dead end

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#405 Post by Spurdo » Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:38 pm

Goodsy wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:32 pm
Sanjeev Gupta is switching Whyalla to renewables, parroting Tony Abbott's lies about not being about to run smelters or manufacturing off renewable energy is dead end
If it’s possible to run an aluminium smelter on 100% intermittent renewable energy, then how come pretty much every one on the planet is run with baseload power, be it hydro, nuclear, coal or gas, they all have one thing in common and that is a reliable, dispatchable source of electricity, there is a reason Aluminium is referred to as electricity in solid form. If you have an idea on how to run one on a 100% intermittent renewable power supply, please post it below.
Last edited by Spurdo on Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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