News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

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Goodsy
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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#406 Post by Goodsy » Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:42 pm

Spurdo wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:38 pm
Goodsy wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:32 pm
Sanjeev Gupta is switching Whyalla to renewables, parroting Tony Abbott's lies about not being about to run smelters or manufacturing off renewable energy is dead end
If it’s possible to run an aluminium smelter on 100% intermittent renewable energy, then how come pretty much every one on the planet is run using hydro, nuclear, coal or gas? If you have an idea on how, please post it below.
It will be done with a 120MW/600MWh pumped hydro facility built in a disused ore pit, along with a 100MWh battery

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#407 Post by Spurdo » Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:54 pm

Goodsy wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:42 pm
It will be done with a 120MW/600MWh pumped hydro facility built in a disused ore pit, along with a 100MWh battery
Sounds better than some ideas that I’ve heard on how, although what happens when the storage runs out?

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#408 Post by PeFe » Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:41 pm

Spurdo wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:54 pm
Goodsy wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:42 pm
It will be done with a 120MW/600MWh pumped hydro facility built in a disused ore pit, along with a 100MWh battery
Sounds better than some ideas that I’ve heard on how, although what happens when the storage runs out?
The sun comes up (well actually the earth turns and our part of the world comes under the sun's influence) and solar power kicks in to power the steel plant..

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#409 Post by Jaymz » Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:59 pm

Spurdo wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:18 pm
Well I’d much rather they build nuclear than intermittent crap like wind & solar PV but that’s just my opinion.

Yep I'm with you. S.A is happy to mine and sell the raw material to the world, but then won't touch it with a barge pole after that. Very hypocritical and naive of us.

I believe a nuclear power station just north of Port Augusta would be ideal. Imagine if we could cut our energy costs by even 10-20% (would most likely be even more), it would give us a massive advantage over the other states.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#410 Post by PeFe » Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:30 pm

Jaymz wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:59 pm
I believe a nuclear power station just north of Port Augusta would be ideal. Imagine if we could cut our energy costs by even 10-20% (would most likely be even more), it would give us a massive advantage over the other states.
Where are the costings? Cliche, cliche, cheap nuclear energy......

Claybro wrote
Nuclear is still the only way most of Western Europe has any hope of reducing their carbon output. Even greener than green Germany sucks happily on French nuclear power. -So not quite the 50's yet, and nuclear as with coal will not only be around for decades yet, it appears to be expanding in use worldwide.
No more French nuclear power plants will be built....renewables is the future in France
and Germany has abandonned nuclear as a future power source (yes they still exist but are not going to be replaced)

And nuclear around the world (well at least in the free world) is in decline

https://www.worldfinance.com/markets/nu ... team-ahead

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#411 Post by SBD » Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:10 am

Goodsy wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:05 pm
SBD wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:56 pm
I'm OK with discussing nuclear power, but I also think that this proposal is very flawed, and suspect that the right time may have passed.
  • 1500MW is more than the total load of electricity in SA much of the time
  • Eyre Peninsula is identified as a good spot for more wind farms, but the grid is not strong enough to install them past Whyalla
  • I'd like to see development of the kind of self-contained units used in submarines. They'd be great as drop-in power sources for remote communities where the grid doesn't reach.
  • As someone else said, when a turbine or panel fails, it's a small loss in capacity until it's replaced
  • The life of any power plant is "only" a few decades.
Does Australia even have any remote communities that could even use a reactor like that? the S9G Reactor on a Virginia class submarine is 150MW
That's a good question. If we developed an Australian version, it is possible we could scale it down to our needs. One of our needs would be air-cooled in a hot atmospheric environment, so we wouldn't want to try to run it at "full" capacity.

That size might be appropriate for some mine sites and even the Alice Springs grid. I think the Ceduna area is powered from the NEM via the ElectraNet substation at Wudinna. Transmission losses could be turned around by a power station that size at Ceduna scaled to power the proposed Iron Road mine near Wudinna

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#412 Post by rev » Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:32 am

[Shuz] wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:30 pm
Spurdo wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:18 pm
Well I’d much rather they build nuclear than intermittent crap like wind & solar PV but that’s just my opinion.
Go back to the 1950s where you belong.
Wow....

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#413 Post by rev » Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:35 am

PeFe wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:30 pm
Jaymz wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:59 pm
I believe a nuclear power station just north of Port Augusta would be ideal. Imagine if we could cut our energy costs by even 10-20% (would most likely be even more), it would give us a massive advantage over the other states.
Where are the costings? Cliche, cliche, cheap nuclear energy......

Claybro wrote
Nuclear is still the only way most of Western Europe has any hope of reducing their carbon output. Even greener than green Germany sucks happily on French nuclear power. -So not quite the 50's yet, and nuclear as with coal will not only be around for decades yet, it appears to be expanding in use worldwide.
No more French nuclear power plants will be built....renewables is the future in France
and Germany has abandonned nuclear as a future power source (yes they still exist but are not going to be replaced)

And nuclear around the world (well at least in the free world) is in decline

https://www.worldfinance.com/markets/nu ... team-ahead
It’s in decline elsewhere so we should write it off as an option because someone in France decided they’d rather try renewables?

We shouldn’t investigate and do our own studies based on Australia’s needs and future needs we should just rely on what others are or aren’t doing? Heaps good strategy...

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#414 Post by claybro » Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:42 am

PeFe wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:30 pm
Jaymz wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:59 pm
I believe a nuclear power station just north of Port Augusta would be ideal. Imagine if we could cut our energy costs by even 10-20% (would most likely be even more), it would give us a massive advantage over the other states.
Where are the costings? Cliche, cliche, cheap nuclear energy......

Claybro wrote
Nuclear is still the only way most of Western Europe has any hope of reducing their carbon output. Even greener than green Germany sucks happily on French nuclear power. -So not quite the 50's yet, and nuclear as with coal will not only be around for decades yet, it appears to be expanding in use worldwide.
No more French nuclear power plants will be built....renewables is the future in France
and Germany has abandonned nuclear as a future power source (yes they still exist but are not going to be replaced)

And nuclear around the world (well at least in the free world) is in decline

https://www.worldfinance.com/markets/nu ... team-ahead
France will not be weaning off its nuclear any time soon, it provides the French with some of the cheapest power in Europe. As for Germany, as it closes nuclear facilities it is STILL building coal fired power stations, despite getting over 2 thirds of its energy from renewables. If the Germans believed they could significantly ramp up their renewable mix in the near future, surely they would not be still building coal generators. Also, as Germany closes their nuclear plants, with half already mothballed, their emissions have again begun increasing despite the renewables.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#415 Post by PeFe » Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:36 am

I am going to go back to my original points :

1) What is the cost of any proposed nuclear plant? (of any size)

2) What is the wholesale cost of the electricity? (per mwh) so people can compare to other energy sources.....

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#416 Post by claybro » Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:24 pm

PeFe wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:36 am
I am going to go back to my original points :

1) What is the cost of any proposed nuclear plant? (of any size)

2) What is the wholesale cost of the electricity? (per mwh) so people can compare to other energy sources.....
I guess in due course, if/when any serious proposal is put forward, then the comparisons can be made. As Australia is starting from scratch with nuclear energy (except the fuel mining) it will probably prove prohibitively expensive with current technology. However, given the entire point of the renewable industry is to negate carbon pollution, and given that countries with a large penetration of renewable energy such as Germany are now increasing their carbon emissions, clearly something is not adding up at present, so in future we may be forced to consider some form of nuclear energy, if coal is to be banned.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#417 Post by rev » Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:29 pm

PeFe wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:36 am
I am going to go back to my original points :

1) What is the cost of any proposed nuclear plant? (of any size)

2) What is the wholesale cost of the electricity? (per mwh) so people can compare to other energy sources.....
What's the overall cost of a new nuclear power plant, power prices included, to Australia in general, or to South Australia if it supplies our state only, compared to the overall cost of renewables?

It's all well and good to come up with some numbers based on what is being built in the UK, but if overall over the life cycle of a plant it's going to be cheaper for consumers, then I think that is what most people care about. And I think that is what the priority for governments should be. Not only would more affordable electricity benefit households, it will also benefit businesses and industry especially as their over heads for operating will come down.

We also have some of the worlds largest uranium deposits on our door step. Would the fact we don't need to pay foreigners to mine it for us, and ship it to us, also reduce the cost? Are such costs taken into account on these foreign plants when people are quoting figures from overseas?

This needs to be about what's good and what benefits everyone, and not about what makes political ideologues feel good that they accomplished something and imposed it on society from their manifesto.

That's why I think a serious study into the benefits or cons of nuclear power for SA & Australia should be done, and we shouldn't rely on France or Germany not building new nuclear plants as a guide for us not to build any.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#418 Post by rhino » Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:07 pm

rev wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:35 am
We shouldn’t investigate and do our own studies based on Australia’s needs and future needs we should just rely on what others are or aren’t doing? Heaps good strategy...
Submarines, anyone?
cheers,
Rhino

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#419 Post by PeFe » Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:46 pm

Here is a paper from an American study regarding future energy costs of power plants about to come online in the USA.
The paper is dated May 4, 2018.
For some reason wind and solar prices are not quoted. Prices are American dollars of course.
Remembering latest Australian costs Solar/Wind $50-55, coal $72 and Pumped Hydro approx $80....per megawatt hour.

he LCOE of nuclear energy plants coming online in 2020 was $95.2/MWh, comparable to conventional coal ($95.1/MWh), above conventional combined cycle natural gas-fired plants ($75.2/MWh) but below conventional combustion turbine natural gas-fired plants ($141.5/MWh). /quote]

http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2018/ph241/wang-k2/

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#420 Post by rev » Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:50 pm

PeFe wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:46 pm
Here is a paper from an American study regarding future energy costs of power plants about to come online in the USA.
The paper is dated May 4, 2018.
For some reason wind and solar prices are not quoted. Prices are American dollars of course.
Remembering latest Australian costs Solar/Wind $50-55, coal $72 and Pumped Hydro approx $80....per megawatt hour.

he LCOE of nuclear energy plants coming online in 2020 was $95.2/MWh, comparable to conventional coal ($95.1/MWh), above conventional combined cycle natural gas-fired plants ($75.2/MWh) but below conventional combustion turbine natural gas-fired plants ($141.5/MWh). /quote]

http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2018/ph241/wang-k2/
Again, what’s the relevance to Australia’s market and needs? None.

You can’t have be seriously trying to make a point against nuclear power by using foreign studies based on what’s happening in other countries.

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