News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#631 Post by bits » Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:52 pm

Aidan wrote: Megawatts are a unit of power, not energy.
Unless power use changes, a megawatt per day is the same as a megawatt per year or a megawatt per second.
I'm lost.
Power, energy and time are all directly related.
Just like distance, speed and time are directly related.

2400km/day is 100km/h which is 10hours/1000km.

46MW/day is exactly as accurate and coherent as stating the MWh.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#632 Post by TorrensSA » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:25 pm

Still seems like a lot of power. So 1 MWDay = 24MWh, because you need an output of 1MW each hour. So the plant needs a constant 46.25MW (this figure might not be right) of power every hour to run. So a 50MW power plant will produce 1200MWh in a day, but its output is 50MW. I get it now MWh is the accumulated energy use in a period, just like your energy bill is for example 10KWh a day or 900KWh for the entire 90 day bill and if you have a solar panel with an excess output of 4KW you would times that by the amount of hours the sun shines, eg in a perfect world 10 hours a day, so 40KWh a day/ 3600KWh per bill. So a power plant of 50MW is producing 50MW continuously, but say I had a massive battery with a capacity 50MW(h) connected to that power plant how long would it take to charge assuming nothing else is connected to the power plant. I'm just lost with the timeframe a 50MW power plant produces 50MW of power.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#633 Post by rev » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:34 pm

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#634 Post by SBD » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:19 pm

rev wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:34 pm
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There is a marked change in the total amount of energy exported from mid-2017. What changed? Did SA get new generation online, or was it a change in the market rules, or an increase in the Heywood Interconnector capacity, or something I haven't thought of?

The decrease in imports seems to correlate roughly to the large-scale solar farms coming online, but could also be market-related.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#635 Post by SBD » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:38 pm

bits wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:52 pm
Aidan wrote: Megawatts are a unit of power, not energy.
Unless power use changes, a megawatt per day is the same as a megawatt per year or a megawatt per second.
I'm lost.
Power, energy and time are all directly related.
Just like distance, speed and time are directly related.

2400km/day is 100km/h which is 10hours/1000km.

46MW/day is exactly as accurate and coherent as stating the MWh.
Almost :wink: Power, energy and time are related like speed, distance and time.
Power = energy per unit time
Speed = distance per unit time

Watts are derived units of power. 1 watt = 1 joule per second, so 1MW = 1MJ/s. It's a bit like if we had a different word for speed units that didn't sound like "distance per time".
MWh are a "convenient" measure of energy for electricity companies to use on their bills.
1 MW = 1 MJ per second
1 MWh = 1MW power for one hour = 3600 MWs = 3600 MJ (seconds per second cancel each other out)

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#636 Post by PeFe » Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:00 am

SBD wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:19 pm
rev wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:34 pm
Image
There is a marked change in the total amount of energy exported from mid-2017. What changed? Did SA get new generation online, or was it a change in the market rules, or an increase in the Heywood Interconnector capacity, or something I haven't thought of?

The decrease in imports seems to correlate roughly to the large-scale solar farms coming online, but could also be market-related.
More wind farms, then solar farms and rooftop solar (home and business) coming online. The Heywood Connector capacity only increased by 50 mw if my memory is correct.

And the Snowtown (3 ?) wind farm was financed by the ACT government so they want their "power"....coz they paid for it!

All future wind and solar farms would be including "exporting" as part of their business model hence the excitement around the proposed NSW interconnector.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#637 Post by SRW » Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:03 am

SBD wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:19 pm
There is a marked change in the total amount of energy exported from mid-2017. What changed? Did SA get new generation online, or was it a change in the market rules, or an increase in the Heywood Interconnector capacity, or something I haven't thought of?

The decrease in imports seems to correlate roughly to the large-scale solar farms coming online, but could also be market-related.
I imagine because Hazelwood closed down.
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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#638 Post by PeFe » Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:06 am

SRW wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:03 am
I imagine because Hazelwood closed down.
I don't think Hazelwood closing had anything to do with South Australia exporting more power....in the sense that SA has excess capacity (and that is cheap wind and solar) so if Victoria didn't buy it then NSW would have. Hazelwood was always going to be more expensive than renewables.

And by the way NSW is the biggest purchaser/user of interconnector power......that state never generates enough power for its own needs, day, night, yesterday, tomorrow......NSW constanly imports (It also helps being in the middle of the interconnector system.....you can always find cheap power interstate.)

The plans for future wind farms and solar farms would have been already made when Hazelwood closed, in fact the Hazelwood closing actually caught the Victorian government by surprise and it won't be until the end of 2020 until that capacity will be replaced in Victoria.

And of course the paradox of South Australia's high electricity prices also plays a part......highest in the country for domestic consumers, but at the same time attracts considerable investment because of this.

The eastern states renewable boom didn't really take off until the gas companies increased the price of gas by 50% over that 2015-17 period, hence the expolosion of new wind and solar farm proposals in Victoria, NSW and Queensland.

Being at the end of the electricity network ( and we will always be at the end......there will never be interconnectors to the Northern Territory or Western Australia) it makes sense to become energy self sufficient/ actively exporting power.

And one day SA domestic electricty prices will start to tumble, hopefully just after billions have been committed to future wind and solar farms (along with bigger batteries)

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#639 Post by SBD » Fri Nov 15, 2019 6:52 am

PeFe wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:00 am
More wind farms, then solar farms and rooftop solar (home and business) coming online. The Heywood Connector capacity only increased by 50 mw if my memory is correct.

And the Snowtown (3 ?) wind farm was financed by the ACT government so they want their "power"....coz they paid for it!

All future wind and solar farms would be including "exporting" as part of their business model hence the excitement around the proposed NSW interconnector.
Snowtown is contracted to Origin Energy. Hornsdale is contracted to ACT.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#640 Post by bits » Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:40 am

SBD wrote: Almost :wink: Power, energy and time are related like speed, distance and time.
Power = energy per unit time
Speed = distance per unit time
I wrote distance and speed in no particular order, in hindsight it certainly would have been more clear to write them in their comparable order! Thanks for making that clear.

I just re-read every post as I thought there was more disagreement about maths but it turns out there actually is not.
Everyone is on the same page just Goodsy incorrectly converted a statement about MW/day into MWh making their numbers out by a factor of 24.


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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#641 Post by PeFe » Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:44 pm

Is the Tesla big battery at Jamestown being expanded?
From PV Magazine
Hornsdale Power Reserve appears set for expansion

Reports from, of all places, Youtube indicate that the Hornsdale Power Reserve is set for a major expansion. Tesla Powerpacks have been spotted being hauled to the battery site, with the reported volume of the deliveries totaling some 500-600 Tesla Powerpacks – indicating that the battery’s capacity is being ramped up.

Image

Whether named the Tesla Big Battery or Hornsdale Power Reserve, Australia’s biggest battery has been a sweet addition to the National Electricity Market (NEM). And it looks set to see a major expansion.

The Youtube channel HyperChange has reported that road-trains carrying Tesla Powerpacks have been spotted traveling out the Hornsdale site. U.S.-based HyperChange had been tipped off by a “citizen journalist” who had sent photos and a video of the Powerpacks on the way to the Hornsdale, with the truck driver reportedly telling the observer that

Quick calculations based on what the truck driver told the observer, that some 37 truckloads of Powerpacks were being transported to the site, that some 500-600 Powerpacks were on their way to the Hornsdale site.

The HyperChange channels aims to cover, “the current economic era of perpetually accelerating disruption.”

pv magazine Australia has contacted both Neoen and Tesla for confirmation. Neoen indicates it has no comment on the reports.

Google Earth images appear to confirm the reports of Hornsdale’s expansion. In the images it looks like preparatory earthworks have been completed at the site, adjacent to the existing battery array.

“This is going to lead to dramatic energy storage deployment growth… either in Q4 or Q1 2020,” HyperChange host Gali observed.

The original Hornsdale Power Reserve has a capacity of 100 MW/ 129 MWh – with around 70% of the system’s peak power output reserved for the South Australian government for the provision of system-security services. In this capacity alone, in particular in the provision Contingency Frequency Control Ancillary Service (FCAS) and Regulation FCAS, Hornsdale has been estimated to have resulted in savings of some $40 million in its first year of operation alone – according to a report from the consultancy Auercon.

Full article : https://www.pv-magazine-australia.com/2 ... expansion/

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#642 Post by PeFe » Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:58 pm

I think this is a new solar/wind farm proposal.
From the Sydney Morning Herald
World's biggest wind farm operator makes first tilt at Australia

Iberdrola, the largest wind energy producer in the world, will make its debut in the Australian market with a $500 million hybrid solar and wind farm planned for South Australia.

The 320 megawatt plant, to be built near Adelaide, would be operational by 2021, and is part of a 650MW plan for wind and solar investments planned for South Australia and Queensland, the company said.

Xabier Viteri, Iberdrola's director of renewable energy, said that while clean energy had increased its share of the Australia market considerably there remains "tremendous potential for further growth".

"Like a lot of countries, we see increasing demand from the public and businesses for their energy to come from clean sources," he said. "When you have that demand, coupled with abundant natural resources for high-performance wind and solar, it creates a highly attractive market to invest in."

Full article : https://www.smh.com.au/business/markets ... 53aki.html

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#643 Post by PeFe » Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:28 pm

A South Australian VPP (Virtual Power Plant) has performed a "frequency control" for the National Electricity Market.
Normally large batteries perform these actions.
From Renew Economy
South Australia household batteries to the rescue as Queensland coal unit fails

The South Australia government and the Australian Energy Market Operator have hailed the success of the state’s solar and battery virtual power plant, after it came to the rescue during an unexpected coal power outage in Queensland last month.

AEMO said on Friday that on October 9, the South Australia VPP – which currently combines the stored solar resource of hundreds of homes with rooftop PV and storage – injected energy into the National Electricity Market (NEM) in response to a large generator outage in the Sunshine State.

The outage at Queensland’s Kogan Creek coal power station happened when the unit – the biggest single unit in Australia – tripped, reducing supply by 784MW, and causing the power system to drop well below the normal level of system frequency.

Image

The VPP detected the frequency drop and immediately injected power into the grid from residential batteries installed on SA Housing Trust properties across the state, contributing with other providers to return the system back to normal, said South Australia energy minister Dan van Holst Pellekaan in a separate statement.

“Although the Virtual Power Plant is in its early days, it is already demonstrating how it can provide the network support traditionally performed by large conventional generators,” the minister said.

The South Australian Virtual Power Plant, which has more than 900 systems installed so far, has been led by US battery and EV maker Tesla, with support from the South Australian government and energy retailer Energy Locals.

In September 2019, the offer was expanded to private households through the Tesla Energy Plan.

Full article : https://reneweconomy.com.au/south-austr ... ils-51385/

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#644 Post by Aidan » Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:34 pm

PeFe wrote: I don't think Hazelwood closing had anything to do with South Australia exporting more power....in the sense that SA has excess capacity (and that is cheap wind and solar) so if Victoria didn't buy it then NSW would have. Hazelwood was always going to be more expensive than renewables.
Hazelwood closing had a huge amount to do with SA exporting more power. Without a carbon price, Hazelwood was more expensive than gas. When it closed, Victorian electricity wholesale prices went up and it became economically viable to export gas-powered electricity from SA.
And by the way NSW is the biggest purchaser/user of interconnector power......that state never generates enough power for its own needs, day, night, yesterday, tomorrow......NSW constanly imports (It also helps being in the middle of the interconnector system.....you can always find cheap power interstate.)
At the time when a direct SA-NSW link should have been built, NSW had excess capacity. Now it's SA that has the excess capacity.
And NSW isn't exactly in the middle of the system - so far it only has direct links to two states, whereas Vic is connected to three.
The plans for future wind farms and solar farms would have been already made when Hazelwood closed.
There's very little long term planning. The supposed boom in wind and solar construction was partly the result of the breaking of an investment drought that the Abbott government caused. There could be another on the way: we've reached the stage where renewables are cheaper than fossil fuels, but now we have the problem of an inefficient market where doing nothing is often more lucrative for electricity companies than doing something.
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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#645 Post by rev » Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:01 pm

PeFe wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:44 pm
Is the Tesla big battery at Jamestown being expanded?
From PV Magazine
Hornsdale Power Reserve appears set for expansion

Reports from, of all places, Youtube indicate that the Hornsdale Power Reserve is set for a major expansion. Tesla Powerpacks have been spotted being hauled to the battery site, with the reported volume of the deliveries totaling some 500-600 Tesla Powerpacks – indicating that the battery’s capacity is being ramped up.

Image

Whether named the Tesla Big Battery or Hornsdale Power Reserve, Australia’s biggest battery has been a sweet addition to the National Electricity Market (NEM). And it looks set to see a major expansion.

The Youtube channel HyperChange has reported that road-trains carrying Tesla Powerpacks have been spotted traveling out the Hornsdale site. U.S.-based HyperChange had been tipped off by a “citizen journalist” who had sent photos and a video of the Powerpacks on the way to the Hornsdale, with the truck driver reportedly telling the observer that

Quick calculations based on what the truck driver told the observer, that some 37 truckloads of Powerpacks were being transported to the site, that some 500-600 Powerpacks were on their way to the Hornsdale site.

The HyperChange channels aims to cover, “the current economic era of perpetually accelerating disruption.”

pv magazine Australia has contacted both Neoen and Tesla for confirmation. Neoen indicates it has no comment on the reports.

Google Earth images appear to confirm the reports of Hornsdale’s expansion. In the images it looks like preparatory earthworks have been completed at the site, adjacent to the existing battery array.

“This is going to lead to dramatic energy storage deployment growth… either in Q4 or Q1 2020,” HyperChange host Gali observed.

The original Hornsdale Power Reserve has a capacity of 100 MW/ 129 MWh – with around 70% of the system’s peak power output reserved for the South Australian government for the provision of system-security services. In this capacity alone, in particular in the provision Contingency Frequency Control Ancillary Service (FCAS) and Regulation FCAS, Hornsdale has been estimated to have resulted in savings of some $40 million in its first year of operation alone – according to a report from the consultancy Auercon.

Full article : https://www.pv-magazine-australia.com/2 ... expansion/
Image
https://reneweconomy.com.au/tesla-big-b ... ger-54935/

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