News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

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SBD
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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#751 Post by SBD » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:51 pm

claybro wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:25 pm
SRW wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:20 pm
Why should renewables subsidise gas? That's absurd to me, presupposing both the continuing cost of gas and the absence of other options? In any event, we (emphasised, because we own it) have an abundance of gas; it's only expensive because we haven't reserved it for our use first, exports second.
Electricity supply is an essential service. Any company supplying to the grid should be required to be able to supply 24/7, 365 days per year. If their method of generation does not allow for that, they should be required to supply backup generation or provide a subsidy to their consumers when sourced elsewhere. Why should a foreign company, have a guaranteed captive market for their product, and also be able avoid any obligation to supply that product as required. I believe electricity generation should be re-nationalised, so all requirements for supply are factored in, and priced accordingly.
By that argument, nearly every rooftop solar panel in the state should be disconnected, as they don't provide reliable electricity to the grid 24/7.

NEM rules were changed a few years ago to require new intermittent generation assets to have some kind of backup to ride out the bumps that weren't properly forecast. Hence the Government's gas turbines are being rehomed and run by renewable energy producers, so they will be allowed to connect more wind turbines and solar panels.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#752 Post by claybro » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:15 pm

PeFe wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:34 pm
I find that a really stupid argument......why would you want to get rid of sources that provide cheap electricity 50% of the time for South Australian consumers?
Nowhere did I suggest getting rid of renewables.
PeFe wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:34 pm

Claybro you perpetuate this notion "24/7 power" as though there is some sort of issue providing power 24 hours a day in this country.....there is not.
Why do we need heaps and heaps of power at 3am? We don't because (obviously) there is little demand at 3am because for what I know of the electricity market demand at 3am is probably around 30-40 percent of average daytime demand. I can not think of one occasion in this country where there is a shortage of supply overnight....
As an example- At 4:22 pm on the 10th of June total renewable input into the grid was around 5%-for the whole interconnected grid.That is at a time of day, when school kids are arriving home, industry is still running, offices are still occupied. Lights coming on, heating coming on. The reason for the low input, was no wind and solar had stopped producing. This low renwable input was common for most of the day, on most days over a 2 week period, due to the large high pressure sitting over SE Australia. It is common at this time of year.-It is more of an issue than the odd hot day in summer. If we are going to have an honest discussion about the role of renwables, we can at least be aware of their limitations, and build a system that requires the operators to have consistent supply. Why cant all new wind farms be mandated to have a battery AND small gas turbine onsite to provide consistent input into the grid-same with solar farms. Then it would become clear the true cost of renwable power, and consumers would pay accordingly. At least then the renewable suppliers could be up for the cost of the backup equipment.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#753 Post by claybro » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:16 pm

PeFe wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:34 pm
I find that a really stupid argument......why would you want to get rid of sources that provide cheap electricity 50% of the time for South Australian consumers?
Nowhere did I suggest getting rid of renewables.
PeFe wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:34 pm

Claybro you perpetuate this notion "24/7 power" as though there is some sort of issue providing power 24 hours a day in this country.....there is not.
Why do we need heaps and heaps of power at 3am? We don't because (obviously) there is little demand at 3am because for what I know of the electricity market demand at 3am is probably around 30-40 percent of average daytime demand. I can not think of one occasion in this country where there is a shortage of supply overnight....
As an example- At 4:22 pm on the 10th of June total renewable input into the grid was around 5%-for the whole interconnected grid.That is at a time of day, when school kids are arriving home, industry is still running, offices are still occupied. Lights coming on, heating coming on. The reason for the low input, was no wind and solar had stopped producing. This low renwable input was common for most of the day, on most days over a 2 week period, due to the large high pressure sitting over SE Australia. It is common at this time of year.-It is more of an issue than the odd hot day in summer. If we are going to have an honest discussion about the role of renwables, we can at least be aware of their limitations, and build a system that requires the operators to have consistent supply. Why cant all new wind farms be mandated to have a battery AND small gas turbine onsite to provide consistent input into the grid-same with solar farms. Then it would become clear the true cost of renwable power, and consumers would pay accordingly. At least then the renewable suppliers could be up for the cost of the backup equipment.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#754 Post by claybro » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:27 pm

SBD wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:51 pm
By that argument, nearly every rooftop solar panel in the state should be disconnected, as they don't provide reliable electricity to the grid 24/7.
There is already talk of disconnecting rooftop solar during times of high generation as it overloads the grid. Rooftop solar is now getting to the point where it can produce in excess of 100% in some areas at some times in some months-it is a big problem in WA where excess power cannot be dumped onto other states. Maybe when battery storage has advanced enough to provide longer periods of supply, this wont be such an issue. Or build a link to the Eastern states.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#755 Post by Nort » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:46 pm

I'm all in favour of rooftop solar and will hopefully have it installed myself in the next few years. However I do think that in the not too distant future it will (and should) be mandated that if you are going to connect rooftop solar to the grid it should need to have a local battery, as well as connections that enable it to be prevented from feeding into the grid when there is oversupply.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#756 Post by SRW » Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:41 pm

claybro wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:16 pm
Then it would become clear the true cost of renwable power, and consumers would pay accordingly. At least then the renewable suppliers could be up for the cost of the backup equipment.
Conveniently in your discussion of the 'true cost' of renewable power is the lack of consideration for the negative externality of fossil power -- namely, carbon.

But as far as rooftop solar, I do agree, it's past time that batteries or VPPs were mandatory.
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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#757 Post by Spurdo » Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:12 am

PeFe wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:34 pm
Claybro you perpetuate this notion "24/7 power" as though there is some sort of issue providing power 24 hours a day in this country.....there is not.
Why do we need heaps and heaps of power at 3am? We don't because (obviously) there is little demand at 3am because for what I know of the electricity market demand at 3am is probably around 30-40 percent of average daytime demand. I can not think of one occasion in this country where there is a shortage of supply overnight...

I do believe the following companies would disagree.
-OZ Minerals
-BHP Olympic Dam
-Adelaide Brighton
-Liberty OneSteel
-Nyrstar
-Kimberly Clark
-Alcoa
-Orica
-Incitec Pivot
-Mount Isa Mines
Plus hundreds/thousands of other companies

All of or most of these companies around Australia run 24 hour shifts meaning that even at midnight they would still require large amounts of electricity to keep their operations running. Saying that we should settle for only having electricity for 12 or 9 hours a day, rather than the 24 hours that is generally expected here in the first world, is simply accepting mediocrity.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#758 Post by SBD » Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:47 am

claybro wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:27 pm
SBD wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:51 pm
By that argument, nearly every rooftop solar panel in the state should be disconnected, as they don't provide reliable electricity to the grid 24/7.
There is already talk of disconnecting rooftop solar during times of high generation as it overloads the grid. Rooftop solar is now getting to the point where it can produce in excess of 100% in some areas at some times in some months-it is a big problem in WA where excess power cannot be dumped onto other states. Maybe when battery storage has advanced enough to provide longer periods of supply, this wont be such an issue. Or build a link to the Eastern states.
Cutting some generators off during times of oversupply is very different to not permitting them to connect at all just because they can't supply all the time. AEMO manages the supply of most generators. A few early wind farms and most rooftop solar is presently unable to be managed as part of the whole grid.
claybro wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:15 pm
If we are going to have an honest discussion about the role of renwables, we can at least be aware of their limitations, and build a system that requires the operators to have consistent supply. Why cant all new wind farms be mandated to have a battery AND small gas turbine onsite to provide consistent input into the grid-same with solar farms. Then it would become clear the true cost of renwable power, and consumers would pay accordingly. At least then the renewable suppliers could be up for the cost of the backup equipment.
I don't see it as necessary that backup gas turbines need to be colocated with wind or solar power, or even owned by the same company. The proposed Tepko gas turbine is ideally located on the SEAGas pipeline and the Victorian interconnector. Alinta's proposed Redbanks turbines are similarly on the Moomba pipeline and a major transmission line. The Tepko one appears to be proposing combined cycle, which is more energy efficient when it needs to run for days at a time such as your example above, compared to small open-cycle turbines or reciprocating engines.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#759 Post by SouthAussie94 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:47 am

Spurdo wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:12 am
PeFe wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:34 pm
Claybro you perpetuate this notion "24/7 power" as though there is some sort of issue providing power 24 hours a day in this country.....there is not.
Why do we need heaps and heaps of power at 3am? We don't because (obviously) there is little demand at 3am because for what I know of the electricity market demand at 3am is probably around 30-40 percent of average daytime demand. I can not think of one occasion in this country where there is a shortage of supply overnight...

I do believe the following companies would disagree.
-OZ Minerals
-BHP Olympic Dam
-Adelaide Brighton
-Liberty OneSteel
-Nyrstar
-Kimberly Clark
-Alcoa
-Orica
-Incitec Pivot
-Mount Isa Mines
Plus hundreds/thousands of other companies

All of or most of these companies around Australia run 24 hour shifts meaning that even at midnight they would still require large amounts of electricity to keep their operations running. Saying that we should settle for only having electricity for 12 or 9 hours a day, rather than the 24 hours that is generally expected here in the first world, is simply accepting mediocrity.
But the fact these companies CAN run a night shift highlights the fact that there ISN'T an issue providing 24/7 power.

No one is advocating for there to be no power generation between 10pm and 5am. That's ludacris.
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Views and opinions expressed are my own and don't necessarily reflect the views or opinions of any organisation of which I have an affiliation

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#760 Post by claybro » Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:45 am

SouthAussie94 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:47 am
But the fact these companies CAN run a night shift highlights the fact that there ISN'T an issue providing 24/7 power.

No one is advocating for there to be no power generation between 10pm and 5am. That's ludacris.
The fact these companies are able to run 24/7 is due to fossil fuel generation still providing 95% of power overnight. This seems not to be changing despite the fact that we are able to produce well over 50% and in SA;s case up to 80% of renewable generation during many days.
PeFe wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:34 pm
Claybro you perpetuate this notion "24/7 power" as though there is some sort of issue providing power 24 hours a day in this country.....there is not.
Why do we need heaps and heaps of power at 3am? We don't because (obviously) there is little demand at 3am because for what I know of the electricity market demand at 3am is probably around 30-40 percent of average daytime demand. I can not think of one occasion in this country where there is a shortage of supply overnight....
It would appear that some are advocating that overnight power generation should not need to ever be able to ramp up significantly-just to fit the renewable model. This is fine if you wish to restrict your economy to a 9-5 operation...not so if you want to attract large energy intense manufacturing.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#761 Post by PeFe » Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:50 pm

SBD wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:51 pm
NEM rules were changed a few years ago to require new intermittent generation assets to have some kind of backup to ride out the bumps that weren't properly forecast. Hence the Government's gas turbines are being rehomed and run by renewable energy producers, so they will be allowed to connect more wind turbines and solar panels.
What?!! Source????? Bungala Solar Farm has no gas backup nor will the Cultana Solar Farm.

Claybro wrote
The fact these companies are able to run 24/7 is due to fossil fuel generation still providing 95% of power overnight.
What??!! Source....Opinion masquerading as fact....my guess is that between midnight and 6am wind provides 30-40% of power in SA.

Claybro wrote
There is already talk of disconnecting rooftop solar during times of high generation as it overloads the grid. Rooftop solar is now getting to the point where it can produce in excess of 100% in some areas at some times in some months-it is a big problem in WA where excess power cannot be dumped onto other states. Maybe when battery storage has advanced enough to provide longer periods of supply, this wont be such an issue. Or build a link to the Eastern states.
Yes you are right....but with caveats....the only two places where this is possible in Australia at the moment is South Australia and Western Australia (There is not enough solar generation capacity compared to demand in the other states) and only on very low demand Sundays in spring and autumn.

Why Sundays....because those two states can experience very low demand for electricity on Sunday (as can the the rest of the country)

Why spring and autumn....because if the temperature sits at a comfortable 22-25 degrees, then no one is using electricity to heat or cool their homes/offices etc. A small change in temperature either way and demand instantly increases.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/rooftop-sol ... lia-69609/

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-01/ ... d/11731452

There are some easy short term solutions to head off this potential problem.......and that's all it is at the moment.....a potential problem.

Encourage everyone with home solar to change the time of day they heat their water tanks. Despite the fact people have free electricity during the day a lot of Australians are still recharging the hot water system after midnight. Yes at 1202 am every day in Australia there is an electricity spike from hot water systems being heated. This a cultural leftover from the 1980's when electricity was charged with 2 tariff rates, peak and off-peak which started at midnight. Charging home hot water between 12-3 pm would soak up some solar generation and this would not be sent to the grid.

As more people are installing home solar panels so too will the number of home batteries increase. So large amounts of power will never make it into the grid, but instead be stored in people's batteries.
Hopefully home owners with solar/batteries will join a VPP so their electricity can be fed into the grid as required.

Also AEMO will require future home solar installations to have inverters that can be remotely turned off.

In South Australia large batteries (Tesla, North Dalyrymple, Lake Bonney) could be encouraged to recharge on these low demand Sundays. A weather forecast would give the authorities an indication of whether this might be necessary.

And AMEO are getting more comfortable allowing very large amounts of renewable energy to dominate the grid. In South Australia AMEO use to demand that 400 mw of gas generation be run at all times.....they have now relaxed that down to 200mw.......What if they relaxed further to 100 mw, thats a lot of home solar that could be accommodated in the near future.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#762 Post by bits » Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:10 am

Add temporary load to the network if we are approaching over 100% supply of demand.
If a lack of load is a problem that seems very easy to design a fix for.
But there is obviously even better and cheaper ways than that.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#763 Post by claybro » Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:51 pm

PeFe wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:50 pm
What??!! Source....Opinion masquerading as fact....my guess is that between midnight and 6am wind provides 30-40% of power in SA.
Not at all. A quick search of freely available information on the net shows power generation mix for the various states. Over the last month, wind has rarely achieved that amount overnight, some nights yes-calm nights no- even in SA. It has barely reached that level even durning the day...it has been comparatively calm on many days over the last few weeks. For the whole of SE Australia, it fares much worse. Opinion masquerading as fact?...then you say "my guess is that....?
My source? -Energy Matters has an interactive chart for all states and all types of generation including battery and rooftop solar- but there are other offical sites as well. As at 3;30 pm today SA time...you are generating negligible power from wind.-Solar is doing well today in SA at around 50% -must be a nice calm sunny day over there...but 50% is gas...and soon the sun is going to loose its strength in about an hour...good bye solar. The rest of the country is even worse...around 85% is coal, and gas except for Tassie hydro...100% in that state. Solar has completely dropped off in the Eastern states...it is 4pm there. On a weekday-the renewable PERCENTAGE of power use on a day like today would be even worse-so by 4pm...no renewables to speak of...you will need one hell of a battery to keep everyone in power for the remaining 15 hours until mid morning tomorrow.-Pumped hydro?...not sure the renewables would have pumped enough water today even if we could find enough dam sites.
Once again-I am not suggesting getting rid of renewables, they have their place in the mix, but we are being told renewables will be ready in 10 years or so to completely run the grid. We can't be designing a power grid by telling people when and how they can heat their hot water,- large scale industry certainly will not operate like that, they will just offshore where China and India are building coal fired power stations like there is no tomorrow.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#764 Post by claybro » Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:51 pm

PeFe wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:50 pm
What??!! Source....Opinion masquerading as fact....my guess is that between midnight and 6am wind provides 30-40% of power in SA.
Not at all. A quick search of freely available information on the net shows power generation mix for the various states. Over the last month, wind has rarely achieved that amount overnight, some nights yes-calm nights no- even in SA. It has barely reached that level even durning the day...it has been comparatively calm on many days over the last few weeks. For the whole of SE Australia, it fares much worse. Opinion masquerading as fact?...then you say "my guess is that....?
My source? -Energy Matters has an interactive chart for all states and all types of generation including battery and rooftop solar- but there are other offical sites as well. As at 3;30 pm today SA time...you are generating negligible power from wind.-Solar is doing well today in SA at around 50% -must be a nice calm sunny day over there...but 50% is gas...and soon the sun is going to loose its strength in about an hour...good bye solar. The rest of the country is even worse...around 85% is coal, and gas except for Tassie hydro...100% in that state. Solar has completely dropped off in the Eastern states...it is 4pm there. On a weekday-the renewable PERCENTAGE of power use on a day like today would be even worse-so by 4pm...no renewables to speak of...you will need one hell of a battery to keep everyone in power for the remaining 15 hours until mid morning tomorrow.-Pumped hydro?...not sure the renewables would have pumped enough water today even if we could find enough dam sites.
Once again-I am not suggesting getting rid of renewables, they have their place in the mix, but we are being told renewables will be ready in 10 years or so to completely run the grid. We can't be designing a power grid by telling people when and how they can heat their hot water,- large scale industry certainly will not operate like that, they will just offshore where China and India are building coal fired power stations like there is no tomorrow.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#765 Post by bits » Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:56 pm


claybro wrote: We can't be designing a power grid by telling people when and how they can heat their hot water,- large scale industry certainly will not operate like that, they will just offshore where China and India are building coal fired power stations like there is no tomorrow.
That is exactly how it has been done for many decades with off peak tariffs. Off peak should just be midday not midnight now.

China has more wind and solar being added than any country for years now. South Australia has a high percentage of wind/solar but Australia as a whole is lagging most developed countries in uptake.

South Australia is connected to the NEM which as a whole is moving to renewables much slower than China and most all other countries. SA's risks do not appear much greater than most other countries, it may in fact be much lower.

NEM is proving one of the slowest moving to renewables in the world and your argument is that it is moving too fast!?

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