News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Buses

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ChillyPhilly
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Buses

#631 Post by ChillyPhilly » Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:28 pm

I'm supportive of the idea of encouraging mode change in the northern suburbs. Public transport in Adelaide isn't the 'worst in the world'. But it does need to be made more viable in outer city areas. However, mode change will only be a viable option if it is made easy.

From what I can speak of from knowledge, on the Gawler line mode change is currently easy at the likes of Mawson Lakes, Salisbury and Elizabeth. However, every stop preceding and in between these three is immediately inaccessible by bus services, or unsafe and lacking in amenity. Islington is a good example of virtually zero access, and provides a strong case against approval of the Kaufland supermarket development that was unfortunately recently approved for the site.

What the State Government should be doing is increasing investment in the Gawler Electrification project to include upgrades for every station as required, as well as access improvements and even some dedicated bus lanes or areas where local road widths permit (e.g. Spains/Frost Road in Salisbury Downs - a potential grade separation project for interchangeability in future if the State Government is serious about improving mode change).
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Buses

#632 Post by TorrensSA » Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:16 pm

Islington can have bus stops / turn around / small interchange on the western side, there's room there. Unless you rebuild Islington and have it accessed from the bridge, lift and stairs going down to a new centre platform.
Also why would you close the Outer Harbor train just to build a line down Port Road? It's a giant waste of money.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Buses

#633 Post by ChillyPhilly » Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:52 pm

TorrensSA wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:16 pm
Islington can have bus stops / turn around / small interchange on the western side, there's room there. Unless you rebuild Islington and have it accessed from the bridge, lift and stairs going down to a new centre platform.
Also why would you close the Outer Harbor train just to build a line down Port Road? It's a giant waste of money.
I'm a fan of using Pedder Crescent as a possible bus interchange, but it's currently used by freight traffic. In addition, the the freight line, along with the freight siding on the east of the station, both form barriers. Islington needs a total rebuild.
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Buses

#634 Post by Norman » Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:03 pm

Sure, they can add the mode change or whatever, but train usage won't have a significant increase until they have a CBD underground loop. If anything, dropping people off from the train at the edge of the city instead of the 22x buses that drop people right in the middle of the city will discourage usage in my opinion.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Buses

#635 Post by 1NEEDS2POST » Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:13 pm

ChillyPhilly wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:28 pm
Islington is a good example of virtually zero access, and provides a strong case against approval of the Kaufland supermarket development that was unfortunately recently approved for the site.
Yes, Islington should be a major interchange with Regency Rd. Freight trains on the standard gauge track often block access to the station from the West. The whole station needs to be rebuilt with steps and a lift to Regency Rd.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Buses

#636 Post by Goodsy » Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:44 pm

1NEEDS2POST wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:13 pm
ChillyPhilly wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:28 pm
Islington is a good example of virtually zero access, and provides a strong case against approval of the Kaufland supermarket development that was unfortunately recently approved for the site.
Yes, Islington should be a major interchange with Regency Rd. Freight trains on the standard gauge track often block access to the station from the West. The whole station needs to be rebuilt with steps and a lift to Regency Rd.
It should be rebuilt to resemble some of the stations in Perth, with an elevated bus station ontop of the train station. Buses could enter and exit via Regency road

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Buses

#637 Post by claybro » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:08 pm

ChillyPhilly wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:28 pm
I'm supportive of the idea of encouraging mode change in the northern suburbs. Public transport in Adelaide isn't the 'worst in the world'. But it does need to be made more viable in outer city areas. However, mode change will only be a viable option if it is made easy.

From what I can speak of from knowledge, on the Gawler line mode change is currently easy at the likes of Mawson Lakes, Salisbury and Elizabeth. However, every stop preceding and in between these three is immediately inaccessible by bus services, or unsafe and lacking in amenity. Islington is a good example of virtually zero access, and provides a strong case against approval of the Kaufland supermarket development that was unfortunately recently approved for the site.

What the State Government should be doing is increasing investment in the Gawler Electrification project to include upgrades for every station as required, as well as access improvements and even some dedicated bus lanes or areas where local road widths permit (e.g. Spains/Frost Road in Salisbury Downs - a potential grade separation project for interchangeability in future if the State Government is serious about improving mode change).
I don't think the intention is for every station to have a bus interchange, rather, some of the buses that come from the outer suburbs all the way into the city (effectively doing the same as the parallel train service) would be re routed to the major interchange stations such as Salisbury and Mawson etc. Gawler, Elizabeth, Mawson and perhaps one other closer should be easily able to facilitate this in the North, and Noarlunga, Oaklands, Flinders in the South. Port Adelaide and Woodville in theWest. The trick will be getting the timetables sincronised, and proper facilities at stations, and speed up the trains by deleting some stations. We need to unclog the CBD of buses coming from the same suburbs already serviced with trains.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Buses

#638 Post by ml69 » Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:43 pm

claybro wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:08 pm
ChillyPhilly wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:28 pm
I'm supportive of the idea of encouraging mode change in the northern suburbs. Public transport in Adelaide isn't the 'worst in the world'. But it does need to be made more viable in outer city areas. However, mode change will only be a viable option if it is made easy.

From what I can speak of from knowledge, on the Gawler line mode change is currently easy at the likes of Mawson Lakes, Salisbury and Elizabeth. However, every stop preceding and in between these three is immediately inaccessible by bus services, or unsafe and lacking in amenity. Islington is a good example of virtually zero access, and provides a strong case against approval of the Kaufland supermarket development that was unfortunately recently approved for the site.

What the State Government should be doing is increasing investment in the Gawler Electrification project to include upgrades for every station as required, as well as access improvements and even some dedicated bus lanes or areas where local road widths permit (e.g. Spains/Frost Road in Salisbury Downs - a potential grade separation project for interchangeability in future if the State Government is serious about improving mode change).
I don't think the intention is for every station to have a bus interchange, rather, some of the buses that come from the outer suburbs all the way into the city (effectively doing the same as the parallel train service) would be re routed to the major interchange stations such as Salisbury and Mawson etc. Gawler, Elizabeth, Mawson and perhaps one other closer should be easily able to facilitate this in the North, and Noarlunga, Oaklands, Flinders in the South. Port Adelaide and Woodville in theWest. The trick will be getting the timetables sincronised, and proper facilities at stations, and speed up the trains by deleting some stations. We need to unclog the CBD of buses coming from the same suburbs already serviced with trains.
Claybro, you live in Perth. I’ve long been an admirer of the Perth rail system, I see it as good role model for what Adelaide’s system could become.

I know on the Joondalup and Mandurah lines, there are timed connections to local bus services, and the buses originating in the outer suburbs don’t run all the way into the CBD. How does Perth make this work? And what is the peak and non-peak weekday frequency on those 2 rail lines?

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Buses

#639 Post by 1NEEDS2POST » Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:13 pm

claybro wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:08 pm
ChillyPhilly wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:28 pm
I'm supportive of the idea of encouraging mode change in the northern suburbs. Public transport in Adelaide isn't the 'worst in the world'. But it does need to be made more viable in outer city areas. However, mode change will only be a viable option if it is made easy.

From what I can speak of from knowledge, on the Gawler line mode change is currently easy at the likes of Mawson Lakes, Salisbury and Elizabeth. However, every stop preceding and in between these three is immediately inaccessible by bus services, or unsafe and lacking in amenity. Islington is a good example of virtually zero access, and provides a strong case against approval of the Kaufland supermarket development that was unfortunately recently approved for the site.

What the State Government should be doing is increasing investment in the Gawler Electrification project to include upgrades for every station as required, as well as access improvements and even some dedicated bus lanes or areas where local road widths permit (e.g. Spains/Frost Road in Salisbury Downs - a potential grade separation project for interchangeability in future if the State Government is serious about improving mode change).
I don't think the intention is for every station to have a bus interchange, rather, some of the buses that come from the outer suburbs all the way into the city (effectively doing the same as the parallel train service) would be re routed to the major interchange stations such as Salisbury and Mawson etc. Gawler, Elizabeth, Mawson and perhaps one other closer should be easily able to facilitate this in the North, and Noarlunga, Oaklands, Flinders in the South. Port Adelaide and Woodville in theWest. The trick will be getting the timetables sincronised, and proper facilities at stations, and speed up the trains by deleting some stations. We need to unclog the CBD of buses coming from the same suburbs already serviced with trains.
The trick to getting timetables sychronised is to forget about timetables. Trains should come every five minutes on the Gawler, Seaford and Outer Harbor lines. Then the bus timetable won't matter, the trains will always be frequent enough to connect.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Buses

#640 Post by claybro » Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:50 am

ml69 wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:43 pm
claybro wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:08 pm
ChillyPhilly wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:28 pm
I'm supportive of the idea of encouraging mode change in the northern suburbs. Public transport in Adelaide isn't the 'worst in the world'. But it does need to be made more viable in outer city areas. However, mode change will only be a viable option if it is made easy.

From what I can speak of from knowledge, on the Gawler line mode change is currently easy at the likes of Mawson Lakes, Salisbury and Elizabeth. However, every stop preceding and in between these three is immediately inaccessible by bus services, or unsafe and lacking in amenity. Islington is a good example of virtually zero access, and provides a strong case against approval of the Kaufland supermarket development that was unfortunately recently approved for the site.

What the State Government should be doing is increasing investment in the Gawler Electrification project to include upgrades for every station as required, as well as access improvements and even some dedicated bus lanes or areas where local road widths permit (e.g. Spains/Frost Road in Salisbury Downs - a potential grade separation project for interchangeability in future if the State Government is serious about improving mode change).
I don't think the intention is for every station to have a bus interchange, rather, some of the buses that come from the outer suburbs all the way into the city (effectively doing the same as the parallel train service) would be re routed to the major interchange stations such as Salisbury and Mawson etc. Gawler, Elizabeth, Mawson and perhaps one other closer should be easily able to facilitate this in the North, and Noarlunga, Oaklands, Flinders in the South. Port Adelaide and Woodville in theWest. The trick will be getting the timetables sincronised, and proper facilities at stations, and speed up the trains by deleting some stations. We need to unclog the CBD of buses coming from the same suburbs already serviced with trains.
Claybro, you live in Perth. I’ve long been an admirer of the Perth rail system, I see it as good role model for what Adelaide’s system could become.

I know on the Joondalup and Mandurah lines, there are timed connections to local bus services, and the buses originating in the outer suburbs don’t run all the way into the CBD. How does Perth make this work? And what is the peak and non-peak weekday frequency on those 2 rail lines?
The success is related to the speed of the trains. Stations are placed about 5km appart, enabling speeds of up to 130 km/h. Trains are 5-10 minutes frequency in peak and about 15-20 off peak. TBH, I'm not sure about busses timetabling with the trains, but during peak hour, regardless of timetabling you wait no more that a few minutes anyway. The stations are substantial and offer great protection from the elements. Adelaide would need to close a number of stations to even come close to this efficiency, and bus connections to the stations much improved. This could be successful in Adelaide by creating integrated station precincts and TOD's

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Buses

#641 Post by OlympusAnt » Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:41 am

I've been to a lot of cities throughout the world and Adelaide's PT definitely isn't the worst, but its far from the best.

As a tourist, it is fine for the usual touristy things. You can get to/from the airport, Glenelg and Hahndorf if you so desire.

For the locals, we definitely need the complete the electrification of all lines and move into line with everyone else. Also some train stations can be removed to decrease travel times. Some are way too close.

An electric train would haul up the hill on the Belair Line with its instant torque.
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Buses

#642 Post by Nort » Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:32 am

1NEEDS2POST wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:13 pm
The trick to getting timetables sychronised is to forget about timetables. Trains should come every five minutes on the Gawler, Seaford and Outer Harbor lines. Then the bus timetable won't matter, the trains will always be frequent enough to connect.
To do that would either require building and managing overtaking lanes for trains or eliminating the express services. I also wonder if there is anywhere near enough patronage to support 24 trains running on the line at one any time.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Buses

#643 Post by claybro » Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:42 am

Nort wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:32 am
1NEEDS2POST wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:13 pm
The trick to getting timetables sychronised is to forget about timetables. Trains should come every five minutes on the Gawler, Seaford and Outer Harbor lines. Then the bus timetable won't matter, the trains will always be frequent enough to connect.
To do that would either require building and managing overtaking lanes for trains or eliminating the express services. I also wonder if there is anywhere near enough patronage to support 24 trains running on the line at one any time.
Given the example of the Mandurah and Butler lines in Perth this is not the case. Trains do run every 5-7 minutes in peak, at 130km/h without overtaking tracks. The long spacing of stations and speed of the trains make express services obsolete. Theses services however were specifically designed for a commuter type setup-long distances in sprawling suburbia. The Northern line setup in Adelaide is somewhat similar, in that it traverses large areas of sparse industrial land, and then sprawling suburbia. Should buses feed into focal stations, then the patronage on the line would be sufficient to run frequent fast trains, and there would be less duplication of services, where currently buses do the same job as the train. It would allow for less buses on inner arterial roads, less diesel pollution, less congestion in the CBD. Problem will be the storm of protest, by residents near local little whistle stop stations. Probably never use the train themselves, but wait for the howls of protest when their little bus stop train platforms are sidelined.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Buses

#644 Post by Nort » Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:01 pm

claybro wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:42 am
Nort wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:32 am
1NEEDS2POST wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:13 pm
The trick to getting timetables sychronised is to forget about timetables. Trains should come every five minutes on the Gawler, Seaford and Outer Harbor lines. Then the bus timetable won't matter, the trains will always be frequent enough to connect.
To do that would either require building and managing overtaking lanes for trains or eliminating the express services. I also wonder if there is anywhere near enough patronage to support 24 trains running on the line at one any time.
Given the example of the Mandurah and Butler lines in Perth this is not the case. Trains do run every 5-7 minutes in peak, at 130km/h without overtaking tracks. The long spacing of stations and speed of the trains make express services obsolete. Theses services however were specifically designed for a commuter type setup-long distances in sprawling suburbia. The Northern line setup in Adelaide is somewhat similar, in that it traverses large areas of sparse industrial land, and then sprawling suburbia. Should buses feed into focal stations, then the patronage on the line would be sufficient to run frequent fast trains, and there would be less duplication of services, where currently buses do the same job as the train. It would allow for less buses on inner arterial roads, less diesel pollution, less congestion in the CBD. Problem will be the storm of protest, by residents near local little whistle stop stations. Probably never use the train themselves, but wait for the howls of protest when their little bus stop train platforms are sidelined.
I used to take the Gawler line regularly and most of the smaller stations had times when they were quite well used.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Buses

#645 Post by TorrensSA » Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:50 pm

Introduce a simple two-tired timetable for the Gawler line for interpeak and evenings at every 10 mins, first train is express Gawler - Tambelin - Smithfield - Elizabeth - Salisbury - Parafield - Mawson - Islington and Adelaide, second is all stops, so every station gets a good service An example would be an express at Elizabeth would take 30 min and the all stops 35min. Service speeds on the Gawler line are decent at the moment, you could shave a few mins off though. Stopping every 10 min at major stations would allow for bus transfers.

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