PRO: Tonsley Rail Extension

[mattblack]

great idea but I wonder why they have this fascination for tram-trains, considering the line runs off the Noarlunga line. Noarlunga is heavy rail. Are they proposing trams from Flinders to Ascot or Mitchell Park to connect with trains to the city or something

The point is a fully intergrated system utilising existing infrastructure as much as possible. There might be a tram-train from the city running on to connect with a fully converted Tonsley line splitting off the main train corridoor at Goodwood. Might even connect to the North Tce line? Either way massive undertaking. Only way to do it really, organise that whole section in one foul swoop. The most important paragraph in Conlons speach was "What we have sought to do is create projects that have a very good benefit-cost analysis and that's the way Commonwealth funding has been allocated." The better the figures look to the feds the more likely we are to get funding.

[jk1237]

great idea but I wonder why they have this fascination for tram-trains, considering the line runs off the Noarlunga line. Noarlunga is heavy rail. Are they proposing trams from Flinders to Ascot or Mitchell Park to connect with trains to the city or something

The point is a fully intergrated system utilising existing infrastructure as much as possible. There might be a tram-train from the city running on to connect with a fully converted Tonsley line splitting off the main train corridoor at Goodwood. Might even connect to the North Tce line?

to utilise the existing infrastructure the most would be for it to be heavy rail (the current rail system). If they did trams they would have to double the tracks between Ascot Park and Goodwood otherwise you would have trams every 10 mins from Flinders competing with express trains from Noarlunga plus Brighton trains on the same tracks. Wow. The quadrupling of the tracks would be an enormous cost. Or you build a tram/train interchange at Ascot Park so people transfer to heavy rail to town.

However, trams are able to get up steeper grades, and theres one hell of a steep hill between the medical centre and the library plaza level of the university, so its more likely a tram can go further up than a train. I would have built a large bus/rail interchange at the med centre and maybe a few escalators to get the students up to the uni. Maybe a cable car, just kidding. I went to Flinders Uni and consider myself fit, but try walking from the med centre up to the social sciences south building quickly - phew.

anyway we just have to wait and see, but atleast something may happen

[SRW]

to utilise the existing infrastructure the most would be for it to be heavy rail (the current rail system). If they did trams they would have to double the tracks between Ascot Park and Goodwood otherwise you would have trams every 10 mins from Flinders competing with express trains from Noarlunga plus Brighton trains on the same tracks. Wow. The quadrupling of the tracks would be an enormous cost. Or you build a tram/train interchange at Ascot Park so people transfer to heavy rail to town.

However, trams are able to get up steeper grades, and theres one hell of a steep hill between the medical centre and the library plaza level of the university, so its more likely a tram can go further up than a train. I would have built a large bus/rail interchange at the med centre and maybe a few escalators to get the students up to the uni. Maybe a cable car, just kidding. I went to Flinders Uni and consider myself fit, but try walking from the med centre up to the social sciences south building quickly - phew.

anyway we just have to wait and see, but atleast something may happen

I don't think your conclusion about having to quadruple tracks between Ascot Park and Goodwood necessarily follows. The whole point of using tram-trains is that they can run on existing heavy rail track (once standardised), right? Also, being low-floor vehicles, I'd imagine they'd be express to Adelaide once merged back onto the Noarlunga line (except for an interchange at, say, Goodwood).

That actually leads onto what Matt was pondering -- what happens once in town? Connect to North Terrace line? Maybe along West Terrace into a city loop? Or just a special platform at Adelaide Station? Exciting times.

[Splashmo]

That actually leads onto what Matt was pondering -- what happens once in town? Connect to North Terrace line? Maybe along West Terrace into a city loop? Or just a special platform at Adelaide Station? Exciting times.

They'd be incompatible though, right? I would've thought the platform heights and stuff wouldn't match. I'm no expert though.

[SRW]

That actually leads onto what Matt was pondering -- what happens once in town? Connect to North Terrace line? Maybe along West Terrace into a city loop? Or just a special platform at Adelaide Station? Exciting times.

They'd be incompatible though, right? I would've thought the platform heights and stuff wouldn't match. I'm no expert though.

As I understand it, tram-trains (or at least the ones that we're in line for) are essentially trams that, in addition to running along a street network, can traverse heavy rail lines of the same gauge by merit of being dual voltage. So they'd be compatible with the Glenelg line. The compatibility issues are with heavy rail stations -- trams being lowfloor and trains high, there's a platform problem. That's why it would probably make sense for the Tonsley tram-trains to again diverge from heavy rail and join up with the city's other tram lines.

[Norman]

to utilise the existing infrastructure the most would be for it to be heavy rail (the current rail system). If they did trams they would have to double the tracks between Ascot Park and Goodwood otherwise you would have trams every 10 mins from Flinders competing with express trains from Noarlunga plus Brighton trains on the same tracks. Wow. The quadrupling of the tracks would be an enormous cost. Or you build a tram/train interchange at Ascot Park so people transfer to heavy rail to town.

However, trams are able to get up steeper grades, and theres one hell of a steep hill between the medical centre and the library plaza level of the university, so its more likely a tram can go further up than a train. I would have built a large bus/rail interchange at the med centre and maybe a few escalators to get the students up to the uni. Maybe a cable car, just kidding. I went to Flinders Uni and consider myself fit, but try walking from the med centre up to the social sciences south building quickly - phew.

anyway we just have to wait and see, but atleast something may happen

Just two corrections...
-The Train-Tram will be running every 15 minutes, not every 10
-The Train-Tram terminates at Car Park 1, not the Library Plaza.

[Westside]

The vision includes proposals for a weekday tram-train service along a duplicated Tonsley rail line requiring construction of new stations at Sturt and the Flinders Medical Centre.

Wait, what did that say? Are they seriously building this for just a weekday service?? Tonsley/Flinders still won't get a rail service on weekends?

I'm just hoping that Adelaidenow just misquoted:

15-minute frequency weekday tram-train service

Inferring 15 mins on weekdays, and still running on weekends (to a lower frequency). Otherwise, that would go down in my book as worse decision than a one way expressway!

[fabricator]

to utilise the existing infrastructure the most would be for it to be heavy rail (the current rail system). If they did trams they would have to double the tracks between Ascot Park and Goodwood otherwise you would have trams every 10 mins from Flinders competing with express trains from Noarlunga plus Brighton trains on the same tracks. Wow. The quadrupling of the tracks would be an enormous cost. Or you build a tram/train interchange at Ascot Park so people transfer to heavy rail to town.

I don't think your conclusion about having to quadruple tracks between Ascot Park and Goodwood necessarily follows. The whole point of using tram-trains is that they can run on existing heavy rail track (once standardised), right? Also, being low-floor vehicles, I'd imagine they'd be express to Adelaide once merged back onto the Noarlunga line (except for an interchange at, say, Goodwood).

Problem I can see is the Tonsley trains currently stop all stations to Adelaide, which allows Noarlunga and some Brighton trains to operate express. By replacing Tonsley trains with trams, you also create a headache with schedules in that Tram-Trains and normal trains cannot both use the same platforms. Therefore there is no option to change from the Tonsley train to the Noarlunga train at Woodlands park, or change to the Belair train at Goodwood.

The exact same thing could be done with heavy rail, only it would integrate much better and would only loose the Sky Station at the University. Mike Rann just has an unhealthy obsession with trams.

The university would be much better served by a ring road bus (Clockwise), Sturt Road, University Drive, Flinders University Ring road, Flinders Drive (down hill), back to Sturt Road. This would take students direct to the buildings instead of dumping them in a carpark.

[Archer]

Personally, I like, for the most part what's being shown in these videos. Something that causes a little bit of concern for me though is access to and particularly from the private hospital and the multi story carpark from Flinders Drive. Particualrly leaving both the hospital and the carpark to get back on to south road heading south. The congestion caused by traffic attempting to turn right onto Flinders drive and then left or right onto south road can be terrible. I can't see how this plan addresses this problem at all, apart from prehaps easing the bank of traffic at the lights, in fact I think it will be worse as there is now a tram/train line to cross as well as any traffic stopped and banked up at the intersection. Of course that assumes that right turns would even be permitted across the Tram/Train Line.

I think this part of the plan needs some more thought.

[muzzamo]

Inferring 15 mins on weekdays, and still running on weekends (to a lower frequency). Otherwise, that would go down in my book as worse decision than a one way expressway!

You have jumped to a whole heap of conclusions. If something like this were to be built, it would definitely run on weekends.

[muzzamo]

I think this part of the plan needs some more thought.

But the grade separation would mean much less time waiting at the lights to turn right onto south Road.

[AtD]

I'm confused and disappointed... a tram? Why a tram? Why make life complicated? Where's the other end of the tram line? Wouldn't simply extending the existing rail line make more sense and be far cheaper and easier?

I'm also disappointed there doesn't seem to be any obvious bus interchange. It would have been very effective for feeder buses to come from the Expressway, Flagstaff Road and Shepherds Hill Road and dump their passengers onto the train, saving the slow and painful trip along South Road.

Why are there buses doing crazy circles in the middle of the TOD-ish area in the corner of Sturt and South? I hope that's not the bus interchange, all the way over there.

This makes glossy render number three for the Sturt and South Road intersections. I wonder if all the work is just making glossy renders!

[Archer]

I think this part of the plan needs some more thought.

But the grade separation would mean much less time waiting at the lights to turn right onto south Road.

Yes that's true, but will right turns accross the Train/Tram line be permitted? From the video (Which I know is not a design at all) It would seem that turning right from there with the track in the way could be very difficult. Will the track be raised at that point (Like the tram line is along port road), preventing any right turns at all?

The waiting times would be cut, but if you can't turn right into flinders drive, that's not going to matter one little bit for the traffic coming out of the multi story car park or the private hospital.

[Omicron]

With regards to these tram-train whatsits, it was my understanding that shared platforms existed in Germany (?) with high sections for regular trains and low extensions for tram-trains - that is, platform-sharing is a relatively simple issue to overcome. Assuming travel between two stations of a reasonable distance apart on level ground (i.e., the majority of the metropolitan network), can TTs achieve similar acceleration and speed figures to regular trains? If you can achieve the same speeds and move just as many people with the added advantages of making tighter turns, climbing higher grades (both of which apparently necessary to make it up the Flinders hill, if I remember rightly), and being more accessible to the street-level when the situation calls for it, then I don't see a problem with including some TTs when much of the fleet is to be replaced anyway.

The road alterations are quite comprehensive - suddenly, the Southern Expressway becomes the main southbound route and Main South Road the option, instead of the other way round. Much better. The new four-way intersection of Flinders Drive and Main South Road is far more preferable to the dreadful, vast intersection of Main South and Sturt as an approach to the hospital, although.....

The congestion caused by traffic attempting to turn right onto Flinders drive and then left or right onto south road can be terrible. I can't see how this plan addresses this problem at all, apart from prehaps easing the bank of traffic at the lights, in fact I think it will be worse as there is now a tram/train line to cross as well as any traffic stopped and banked up at the intersection. Of course that assumes that right turns would even be permitted across the Tram/Train Line.

I think this part of the plan needs some more thought.

I'd hazard a guess that part of the reason for using tram-trains is so that the length of Flinders Drive will have non-intrusive, easily-crossed tram tracks, allowing for right turns. I do know what you mean about the carpark exit, though - getting onto Flinders Drive in the first place with that heinous right turn from the carpark isn't the most enjoyable thing in the world, especially with the afternoon sun right in your face. And, really, aren't we meant to be moving away from at-grade intersections on main thoroughfares? Why is there one on Sturt Road, for goodness sake?

[Aidan]

That actually leads onto what Matt was pondering -- what happens once in town? Connect to North Terrace line? Maybe along West Terrace into a city loop? Or just a special platform at Adelaide Station? Exciting times.

They'd be incompatible though, right? I would've thought the platform heights and stuff wouldn't match. I'm no expert though.

It's worse than that - the rail profiles on our tram and train lines are also very different, and finding tram-train wheel profiles that are good for running on both could be a big problem.