News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

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monotonehell
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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#586 Post by monotonehell » Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:31 pm

how good is he wrote:I also had an interesting conversation with someone involved in the NBN. He predicts/expects a few years after its complete (ie 5-10 years from now) that it will get privatised. That is, the govt will just auction it off to the highest bidder (or via a share market float). The likely sale price would be in the billions. So then for it to give a decent return/profit expect the cost of the NBN to skyrocket (no longer artificially supported). What's also likely is it will be owned by an overseas (Telco) company. Thoughts?
The original plan (Labor's) was to sell it off once the network was established and the country had near ubiquitous coverage. The problem now is that instead of being an asset that is worth more than the cost, it's an asset that is estimated to be worth about half of what it costs. We're spending more on less. It's criminal.
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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#587 Post by Vee » Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:32 pm

The NBN rollout map was recently updated with the technology mix to premises, including the oddly named FTTC - Fibre to the Curb (kerb).

Some areas have 'install' dates well into the future eg 2020. Few will get FTTP and many will get their HFC connection re-badged as NBN. And prices for 'high speed' broadband are still an issue.

FTTC is the most recent item in the multi technology mix, replacing FTTN. Starting 2018?
The fibre connects with a small Distribution Point Unit (DPU) that "uses the existing copper line to deliver broadband to the premises over a (usually) relatively short distance."
FTTC avoids the need for expensive, unsightly powered node cabinets (FTTN) dotted around the neighbourhood with the end user paying through reverse powering the (DPU).

Not sure how much the end user would need to pay to upgrade to FTTP from FTTC but saw one suggestion of $6k?

Check the rollout map.
http://www.nbnco.com.au/learn-about-the ... t-map.html

What is FTTC?
http://www.nbnco.com.au/blog/the-nbn-pr ... ology.html

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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#588 Post by monotonehell » Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:05 pm

Vee wrote:The NBN rollout map was recently updated with the technology mix to premises, including the oddly named FTTC - Fibre to the Curb (kerb).
My place, on Rundle Street Adelaide, is scheduled for last half 2018 & FTTC. Except I know it won't work here because I've seen the state of the copper wires in my building. There's rusty installs from the late 1980s (a technician's card in the MDF proves the dates). There's a mess of broken wires into each unit. Of the four that lead into mine, only one works.

For FTTC to work here, they would have to run new copper into the building.

Reading some of the results for the web page from around the country, only one or two have FTTP scheduled, and those are for 2020.

Seriously, when are we going to see a criminal investigation into Turnbull & co's handling of this?
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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#589 Post by SBD » Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:18 pm

It's hard to imagine a scenario where putting a box in the pit at the kerb and a box to power it in my garage could possibly be cheaper than one box in the garage and use the existing copper to draw a fibre through the conduit to/from the pit to the garage. I guess it's possible that older areas don't have a conduit from the kerb to the house?

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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#590 Post by Waewick » Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:26 pm

My home says early 2018. I am getting HTC apparently.

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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#591 Post by rhino » Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:47 pm

monotonehell wrote:... the state of the copper wires in my building. There's rusty installs from the late 1980s ...
You have rusty copper? How did you do that?
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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#592 Post by bits » Tue Feb 28, 2017 6:33 pm

monotonehell wrote: My place, on Rundle Street Adelaide, is scheduled for last half 2018 & FTTC. Except I know it won't work here because I've seen the state of the copper wires in my building. There's rusty installs from the late 1980s (a technician's card in the MDF proves the dates). There's a mess of broken wires into each unit. Of the four that lead into mine, only one works.

For FTTC to work here, they would have to run new copper into the building.
Multiple dwelling building, that internal cabling would be your buildings problem not NBN.
If the MDF is corroded due to water damage it likely needs to be replaced at your expense also.
You need to talk to your landlord or pay for it to be replaced yourself.
The incoming cable being from the 80's is of no concern and is relatively young.

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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#593 Post by monotonehell » Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:17 am

bits wrote:
monotonehell wrote: My place, on Rundle Street Adelaide, is scheduled for last half 2018 & FTTC. Except I know it won't work here because I've seen the state of the copper wires in my building. There's rusty installs from the late 1980s (a technician's card in the MDF proves the dates). There's a mess of broken wires into each unit. Of the four that lead into mine, only one works.

For FTTC to work here, they would have to run new copper into the building.
Multiple dwelling building, that internal cabling would be your buildings problem not NBN.
If the MDF is corroded due to water damage it likely needs to be replaced at your expense also.
You need to talk to your landlord or pay for it to be replaced yourself.
The incoming cable being from the 80's is of no concern and is relatively young.
The service providers are responsible for maintenance of the cable up to the Network Boundary Point. In a residential building this is either the first socket in the home, or an MDF in a multi.

In my case the MDF was an install for an office that has since left the unit. The unit was then returned to residential use. The MDF has been abandoned and the residential install looped over the top of it. The tech card was left before record keeping became a joke, when techs used to leave records on premises where multiple lines were installed. As well as updating the record system back at Telecom.

The "broken wires into each unit" I referred to are separate service provider installs, to my neighbours. All on the other side of the NBP. Where the copper has failed, it has been left and the alt of the twisted pair has been used. This is the copper that the NBco plan is banking on using to provide the last run for FTTC. It won't work, they will have to run new copper, may as well run fiber.
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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#594 Post by bits » Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:03 am

monotonehell wrote: In my case the MDF was an install for an office that has since left the unit. The unit was then returned to residential use. The MDF has been abandoned and the residential install looped over the top of it.
Well I suppose they will replace any cabling that fails to obtain the speeds they need.
However if you have a functioning adsl service currently why do you assume the pair you have will not continue to work for nbn?

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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#595 Post by monotonehell » Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:01 pm

bits wrote:
monotonehell wrote: In my case the MDF was an install for an office that has since left the unit. The unit was then returned to residential use. The MDF has been abandoned and the residential install looped over the top of it.
Well I suppose they will replace any cabling that fails to obtain the speeds they need.
However if you have a functioning adsl service currently why do you assume the pair you have will not continue to work for nbn?
Again, I'm not talking about just me. I have an ADSL service which is working well on the last good piece of copper out of four coming into my unit. The other three are broken. The rest of the building all have their own connections, and as I have described, the situation is very third world installation. The NBNco's plan for my block is to run Fibre To The Curb and use existing copper the last leg. With the copper in the state it is, they are not going have much success.

On top of all this, is the fact that the record keeping is woeful. When I first had a service connected there, it was connected to another line elsewhere in the building (well somewhere else, I never found out where it was). I also learned never to get a naked ADSL service, as without a dial tone, techs will assume an empty line and steal your copper connection at the pit for another job.

If the record keeping is as bad as I know it to be (I have seen it from the inside) most of the NBNco's rollout plans will be based on incorrect assumptions.

If they arrive at a job and find the copper not up to the job, are they going to consider a FTTP install instead? If they have to run a new lead in, why not?
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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#596 Post by bits » Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:19 pm

monotonehell wrote:
Again, I'm not talking about just me. I have an ADSL service which is working well on the last good piece of copper out of four coming into my unit. The other three are broken. The rest of the building all have their own connections, and as I have described, the situation is very third world installation. The NBNco's plan for my block is to run Fibre To The Curb and use existing copper the last leg. With the copper in the state it is, they are not going have much success.

On top of all this, is the fact that the record keeping is woeful. When I first had a service connected there, it was connected to another line elsewhere in the building (well somewhere else, I never found out where it was). I also learned never to get a naked ADSL service, as without a dial tone, techs will assume an empty line and steal your copper connection at the pit for another job.

If the record keeping is as bad as I know it to be (I have seen it from the inside) most of the NBNco's rollout plans will be based on incorrect assumptions.

If they arrive at a job and find the copper not up to the job, are they going to consider a FTTP install instead? If they have to run a new lead in, why not?
Your building cabling situation does jot change under the new NBN.
If it was broken now, those responsible would need to fix it. For most mdu that would be you, but for your building maybe that is Telstra.
Under NBN if it was broken those responsible would need to fix it, eg you or NBN.

Replacing a faulty section of internal cat3 with cat3 cable I assume would be the answer. Maybe remake the joint between the lead-in and internal cable.
NBN/telstra might replace the 10m of faulty cable and that is all.
It is highly unlikely, or atleast no more likely, the entire thing needs to be replaced otherwise that would have already happened.

Fttp requiring replacement of all cabling to your house was half the point of fttp.
It was a fresh start.
Now NBN has no intentions of making everything new.
Instead the NBN is just a continuation of exactly what telstra has been doing for decades, maintaining the existing cabling of various ages - much is much older than 40 years.
It will be cheaper to repair the single pair on the cat3 network than deploy fttp to you. And if you have service now, NBN likely have nothing they need to fix.

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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#597 Post by bits » Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:30 pm

fttn/hfc have been around and maintained by Telstra since the 90's. More nodes for fttn is just a minor adjustment to exactly what has been for ages.
Fttc is new but just a variation of fttn.

NBN is just re-nationalizing Telstra under a new ABN.
And without fttp the entire thing is just the natural next step from adsl. Transact was doing vdsl in Canberra for ages.

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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#598 Post by monotonehell » Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:26 am

Bits, you seem to be missing the point.

* Telstra, Optus and their contractors have been responsible for maintaining and documenting the copper network for a couple of decades now.
* They have not been maintaining it nor have they been documenting it to a standard that would allow NBNco to make definite plans about which of their technology mix would work in what area.
* NBNco have made a determination about my block based on this faulty record keeping.
* The situation on the ground is a lot of wires terminating at the pit, none of which anyone has any idea goes where, except by trial and error. Many of which are broken.
(My situation, for example, was over three successive technician jobs. Basically each time they wired up a random wire at their best guess and reported job done until I reported that there was a service on my line.)

The point: If this situation is encountered when the NBN contractors open a pit/column/cabinet to install FTTC for an area, and they determine that the copper lead-ins need to be replaced, then they need to reconsider if FTTC is the best option. If they are running new lead-ins, would it not be cheaper to run fibre and save money on the powered equipment in the pit?
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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#599 Post by bits » Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:54 pm

monotonehell wrote:
The point: If this situation is encountered when the NBN contractors open a pit/column/cabinet to install FTTC for an area, and they determine that the copper lead-ins need to be replaced, then they need to reconsider if FTTC is the best option. If they are running new lead-ins, would it not be cheaper to run fibre and save money on the powered equipment in the pit?
Why is it at all different for NBN than previously for Telstra.
Why do you think Telstra has not replaced the cable and why does NBN need to replace the cable.
It is exactly the same problem, telstra have already shown you they are willing and are able to make your old wires work(with or without accurate records). NBN need not do anything different.
If it has been good enough under telstra it will be good enough under NBN.

Just as it is cheaper under telstra to not install new cables and instead hack at the old wires until you win, the same will be true under NBN.

What is the problem NBN will have that telstra did not have?

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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#600 Post by monotonehell » Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:24 pm

bits wrote:
monotonehell wrote:
The point: If this situation is encountered when the NBN contractors open a pit/column/cabinet to install FTTC for an area, and they determine that the copper lead-ins need to be replaced, then they need to reconsider if FTTC is the best option. If they are running new lead-ins, would it not be cheaper to run fibre and save money on the powered equipment in the pit?
Why is it at all different for NBN than previously for Telstra.
Why do you think Telstra has not replaced the cable and why does NBN need to replace the cable.
It is exactly the same problem, telstra have already shown you they are willing and are able to make your old wires work(with or without accurate records). NBN need not do anything different.
If it has been good enough under telstra it will be good enough under NBN.

Just as it is cheaper under telstra to not install new cables and instead hack at the old wires until you win, the same will be true under NBN.

What is the problem NBN will have that telstra did not have?
It's a completely different situation.

Up until the NBN the service providers (Telstra, Optus, etc) had to provide a service that linked the copper wire from the exchange to the copper wire to your boundary point. This was done at the pit/cabinet with a crimp connector. Cost of a few cents plus labour. Metal wires all the way, no matter if your talking about voice or ADSL on top of voice.

Now with the NBN, a (neo)broadband service needs to be provided. This is a digital fibre service. With FTTP that fibre was simply divided at the pit/cabinet with a passive splitter at the cost of a few dollars plus labour.

However with the other technologies in the NBNco mix there must be an active device (powered + logic) in the cabinet or pit.

With FTTN there is a mini exchange in the much larger cabinet, converting the 'light signal' to an electrical signal (thus a power source is required) to be sent down the copper cable to the pit which is then sent down the lead in wire to the home. Any joints and other problems with the wire degrade this signal greatly often bringing FTTN to speeds not much faster than ADSL. The equipment costs here are great because the cabinet is basically a mini-exchange with modems, similar to how ADSL works, except the DSL modems are in the exchange and laid over the analogue voice signal.

With FTTC (Fibre To The Kerb, known everywhere else in the World as FTTdp) The fibre is run all the way to the closest convenient pit or pillar, the lead in cable is used to reverse supply power from the home to the pit for each connection, an active splitter is installed in the pit. The costs here are less than FTTN, but are borne on each connection separately. You need a mini-modem in the pit for each connection.


Again my point: Since the provider is responsible for the lead in cable; and since the equipment and install cost of FTTdp is greater than FTTP per install; why would NBNco not consider switching an area to FTTP if upon implementation they discover the copper lead in cables need replacing? Especially considering the whole argument against FTTP was based on installation cost.
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