[U/C] M2 North-South Motorway

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SouthAussie94
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[U/C] Re: News & Discussion: South Road / North-South Corridor

#931 Post by SouthAussie94 » Mon Jun 02, 2014 5:41 pm

rev wrote:How many people here are actually qualified or educated(in the relevant fields) to be able to make submissions to community consultations?
Why would those experts, qualified and educated, who are paid, take the advice and opinions of members of the public into consideration if they aren't trained and just rambling on about how they don't want this and they want that, or they think this and that and blah blah blah..

We all have our opinions, views, ideas, thoughts, visions of what we'd like to see happen..but let's be honest, none of us are actual experts or people educated in urban transport planning or whatever. The only exception being Aidan I believe. Could be wrong.

It's one thing to object to an onramp being the view in your backyard, it's another to sit there and try and tell the experts who know what they've got to work with, and how much is in the budget, where there should be a tunnel, grade separation, extra lanes, etc.

Think about the fact that they actually have a complete picture of what's going on and what is possible and achievable. Then they have to work that within political constraints.
For the most part I do agree, however the previous incarnation of the Darlington upgrade did have grade separated access to the SEXY for all traffic, completely removing a set of traffic lights. This proves that it is possible. Whether it is possible within the constraints of the budget allocated to the present plan, who knows. It most certainly is possible though.
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[U/C] Re: News & Discussion: South Road / North-South Corridor

#932 Post by neoballmon » Mon Jun 02, 2014 6:59 pm

SouthAussie94 wrote:
For the most part I do agree, however the previous incarnation of the Darlington upgrade did have grade separated access to the SEXY for all traffic, completely removing a set of traffic lights. This proves that it is possible. Whether it is possible within the constraints of the budget allocated to the present plan, who knows. It most certainly is possible though.
This is the plan that was released before the expressway was decided to be duplicated? If so then wasn't the problem with this that there was insufficient distance to get from the expressway lanes to the turning Lane for Flinders Drive? Which would be my guess as to why that end of the interchange is as is in the new design.

Their lack of foreplanning for Tonsleys extension and the pending chaos at Ayliffes road is just stupidity.
Looking forward to a free-flowing Adelaide!

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[U/C] Re: News & Discussion: South Road / North-South Corridor

#933 Post by ChillyPhilly » Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:08 am

rev wrote:How many people here are actually qualified or educated(in the relevant fields) to be able to make submissions to community consultations?
Why would those experts, qualified and educated, who are paid, take the advice and opinions of members of the public into consideration if they aren't trained and just rambling on about how they don't want this and they want that, or they think this and that and blah blah blah..

We all have our opinions, views, ideas, thoughts, visions of what we'd like to see happen..but let's be honest, none of us are actual experts or people educated in urban transport planning or whatever. The only exception being Aidan I believe. Could be wrong.

It's one thing to object to an onramp being the view in your backyard, it's another to sit there and try and tell the experts who know what they've got to work with, and how much is in the budget, where there should be a tunnel, grade separation, extra lanes, etc.

Think about the fact that they actually have a complete picture of what's going on and what is possible and achievable. Then they have to work that within political constraints.
Your points are valid. However, if DPTI were to, say, delegate planning of Darlington to a local residents' group, the group may lack qualifications, but have what DPTI don't: local knowledge.

I will be writing a final year Honours thesis on public participation in coming months, and will tie it to the planning and development system with a local focus if possible.

While on the topic the issue with most partcipation mechanisms/methods is that they are 'non deliberative' (while the practice of public participation itself is an idea rooted in the common concept of deliberation).
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All views expressed on this forum are my own.

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[U/C] Re: News & Discussion: South Road / North-South Corridor

#934 Post by rubberman » Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:50 am

rev wrote:How many people here are actually qualified or educated(in the relevant fields) to be able to make submissions to community consultations?
Why would those experts, qualified and educated, who are paid, take the advice and opinions of members of the public into consideration if they aren't trained and just rambling on about how they don't want this and they want that, or they think this and that and blah blah blah..

We all have our opinions, views, ideas, thoughts, visions of what we'd like to see happen..but let's be honest, none of us are actual experts or people educated in urban transport planning or whatever. The only exception being Aidan I believe. Could be wrong.

It's one thing to object to an onramp being the view in your backyard, it's another to sit there and try and tell the experts who know what they've got to work with, and how much is in the budget, where there should be a tunnel, grade separation, extra lanes, etc.

Think about the fact that they actually have a complete picture of what's going on and what is possible and achievable. Then they have to work that within political constraints.
The answer to that is best illustrated by the example of a visit to the doctor.

The Doctor needs to know what the problem is, and why it is a problem before a solution can be offered. In most cases, it is the patient who is best placed to provide that information.

Public consultation is a means of ensuring that the experts are solving the actual problem, and not some problem they imagine, or assume.

Similarly, on-going consultation also ensures that the experts have not veered from the agreed path.

Also, many projects have to change scope during the project planning, design and construction phases. If these scope changes are worked through as part of a consultation process, believe me, there is much less grief for the "experts" involved.

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[U/C] Re: News & Discussion: South Road / North-South Corridor

#935 Post by Goodsy » Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:20 pm

heard along the grapevine that the water table is too high for the Torrens to Torrens trench so they're going to build another superway, has anyone else heard the same?

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[U/C] Re: News & Discussion: South Road / North-South Corridor

#936 Post by ChillyPhilly » Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:36 pm

rubberman wrote:
rev wrote:How many people here are actually qualified or educated(in the relevant fields) to be able to make submissions to community consultations?
Why would those experts, qualified and educated, who are paid, take the advice and opinions of members of the public into consideration if they aren't trained and just rambling on about how they don't want this and they want that, or they think this and that and blah blah blah..

We all have our opinions, views, ideas, thoughts, visions of what we'd like to see happen..but let's be honest, none of us are actual experts or people educated in urban transport planning or whatever. The only exception being Aidan I believe. Could be wrong.

It's one thing to object to an onramp being the view in your backyard, it's another to sit there and try and tell the experts who know what they've got to work with, and how much is in the budget, where there should be a tunnel, grade separation, extra lanes, etc.

Think about the fact that they actually have a complete picture of what's going on and what is possible and achievable. Then they have to work that within political constraints.
The answer to that is best illustrated by the example of a visit to the doctor.

The Doctor needs to know what the problem is, and why it is a problem before a solution can be offered. In most cases, it is the patient who is best placed to provide that information.

Public consultation is a means of ensuring that the experts are solving the actual problem, and not some problem they imagine, or assume.

Similarly, on-going consultation also ensures that the experts have not veered from the agreed path.

Also, many projects have to change scope during the project planning, design and construction phases. If these scope changes are worked through as part of a consultation process, believe me, there is much less grief for the "experts" involved.
I agree with some points here but disagree with others. If you're curious, I highly recommend reading over the case of Roombeek in the Netherlands. It's actually an interesting read and proved how the people are in fact the experts of their neighbourhoods: 'Rebuilding Roombeek: Patterns of Citizen Participation in Urban Governance'. I can email you a PDF copy if interested.
GoodSmackUp wrote:heard along the grapevine that the water table is too high for the Torrens to Torrens trench so they're going to build another superway, has anyone else heard the same?
Surely not the case as they've done exploration drilling (and with that you'd expect in the right places too). We're hoping, anyway. Where did you hear this?
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[U/C] Re: News & Discussion: South Road / North-South Corridor

#937 Post by Goodsy » Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:20 pm

ChillyPhilly wrote:Surely not the case as they've done exploration drilling (and with that you'd expect in the right places too). We're hoping, anyway. Where did you hear this?
from a delivery driver, not sure where he heard it from

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[U/C] Re: News & Discussion: South Road / North-South Corridor

#938 Post by how good is he » Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:44 pm

Doubt they would have spent millions of dollars over the years buying properties and now bulldozing them if they hadn't done there homework until now ..

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[U/C] Re: News & Discussion: South Road / North-South Corridor

#939 Post by contractor » Thu Jun 05, 2014 1:30 pm

GoodSmackUp wrote:
ChillyPhilly wrote:Surely not the case as they've done exploration drilling (and with that you'd expect in the right places too). We're hoping, anyway. Where did you hear this?
from a delivery driver, not sure where he heard it from
I would check your source.. if it was a Pizza delivery driver then most likely he/she is right.

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[U/C] Re: News & Discussion: South Road / North-South Corridor

#940 Post by Goodsy » Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:43 pm

contractor wrote:
GoodSmackUp wrote:
ChillyPhilly wrote:Surely not the case as they've done exploration drilling (and with that you'd expect in the right places too). We're hoping, anyway. Where did you hear this?
from a delivery driver, not sure where he heard it from
I would check your source.. if it was a Pizza delivery driver then most likely he/she is right.
Nah it was a Toll driver, are they a bad source?

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[U/C] Re: News & Discussion: South Road / North-South Corridor

#941 Post by warpspeed » Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:09 pm

I heard on the radio today that the design for T2T has been modified such that the power substation won't need to be relocated and will remain in it's current location.

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[U/C] Re: News & Discussion: South Road / North-South Corridor

#942 Post by Nort » Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:01 pm

warpspeed wrote:I heard on the radio today that the design for T2T has been modified such that the power substation won't need to be relocated and will remain in it's current location.
Guess that saves a bit of money but seems weird, it's a reasonably large parcel of land not that far from town.

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[U/C] Re: News & Discussion: South Road / North-South Corridor

#943 Post by Howie » Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:04 pm

I heard this a couple weeks ago as well. So my guess is that the carwash across from the substation will have to go instead.

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[U/C] Re: News & Discussion: South Road / North-South Corridor

#944 Post by neoballmon » Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:42 pm

The car wash has already closed and has been partly dismantled.
Looking forward to a free-flowing Adelaide!

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[U/C] Re: News & Discussion: South Road / North-South Corridor

#945 Post by [Shuz] » Fri Jun 06, 2014 2:35 pm

warpspeed wrote:I heard on the radio today that the design for T2T has been modified such that the power substation won't need to be relocated and will remain in it's current location.
I can confirm this - Torrens to Torrens has been amended significantly from the original proposal. The 'non-stop' road will now run in the centre of the existing South Road, rather than on its western alignment.
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