[U/C] M2 North-South Motorway

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Llessur2002
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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3796 Post by Llessur2002 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:20 am

ChillyPhilly wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:46 am
Call me daft, but somehow I just can't see driverless cars being a big thing for many decades yet.
But nor will an extensive freeway network. So is it even feasible to build such a network in the amount of time it would take automation to potentially deem it unnecessary?

Our roads cope pretty well at the moment with our current volume of traffic. Anyone who thinks otherwise has never lived or driven in a city in the eastern states or in Europe. If, as I suspect, our population growth will not outstrip the growth of technology that will enable the much more efficient use of our existing road network then we will not need bigger roads.

I'm not saying we don't need improvements to our metropolitan road network - some of our intersections are awful. We need to get rid of level crossings on major arterials. The sychronisation of many intersections across the network could be much better.

However, we already have an extensive network of 4 and 6 lane roads traversing our city. Those are big, wide, high capacity roads by the standard of many major cities. Reduce the problems and bottlenecks at intersections, crossings etc, throw in a bit of automation and we will already have the type of network that many cities would love to have.

Hopefully the future will also see significant improvements to our public transport network and a large drop in private car ownership figures (i.e. reducing the total pool of vehicles using the roads).
Last edited by Llessur2002 on Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3797 Post by croweater888 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:23 am

https://emerj.com/ai-adoption-timelines ... utomakers/

Driverless cars are definitely closer than you think.

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3798 Post by rev » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:04 pm

Llessur2002 wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:20 am
ChillyPhilly wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:46 am
Call me daft, but somehow I just can't see driverless cars being a big thing for many decades yet.
But nor will an extensive freeway network. So is it even feasible to build such a network in the amount of time it would take automation to potentially deem it unnecessary?
You keep saying things like this. But you don't give any explanation how driverless cars will remove the necessity of having motorways.

Will driverless cars make you get somewhere faster if the road network is still as shit as it was before driverless cars?

And other things to consider..

Whose going to pay for the infrastructure to support driverless cars, which will not use combustion engines?...is the consumer going to have to pay to retrofit equipment in their garage/carport?
Is it going to come with the equipment as standard and a tech will come out and install it with delivery of your car as part of a package price? Will petrol stations be converted to charging stations or will most go out of business, since you'll be charging your car at home?
With a decline in fuel sales, there will be a decline in refineries. More job losses. What happens to the Defence Force? Will all their vehicles be retrofitted? Will they all be replaced? So defence spending will go up, while tax receipts will go down as more people will be out of work and there'll be less tax receipts from the fuel tax collected from petrol stations. Not to mention driverless trucks..that means even less people employed which means even less tax revenue for governments, and even state governments with less revenue from licensing and other things.
Think drivers wont be replaced? Look at some of the mines in WA who are using GPS guided trucks. No drivers. They instead have a much smaller team in a control room monitoring the trucks.

There's a lot to be considered, and a lot of changes required. These things wont happen in a few short years.
Yeh the technology exists, it's being improved and prepared for mainstream use. That doesn't mean it's on our doorstep. Can everyone with a car especially in this state afford to go out and buy one of these new, expensive non-combustion engined driverless cars when they come out? Most cant afford a new hybrid vehicle today, nor will they be able to afford a driverless car as soon as they come out or even within a few years.

The reality is, we are decades away from driverless cars being the norm.

And another thing that needs to be considered is insurance. Is insurance going to cover your car in the event of an accident? What if the accident is caused by your vehicles software malfunctioning? Whose going to pay? Look at your "smart" phone...how many problems exist on them and security issues particularly...

Like I said, just because the technology is maturing, doesn't mean it's going to become the norm on our roads any time soon. We will all be old men, or most of you long dead from old age, before it is anything like being the norm. A good example is hybrids...they have been around for quite a while now. How many are there on the roads? Not that many, far from being the norm.

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3799 Post by SBD » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:31 pm

So many clichés in one post!

Autonomous/driverless cars and electric cars are separate issues that should not be conflated. Most manufacturers now have at least one electric vehicle in their range, so the transition of fuelling/charging infrastructure is already started. We don't know how long it will take to reach a new equilibrium or if that will be 100% electric or some ongoing blend of electric and liquid fuel for the next few centuries.

Whether autonomous cars become "a thing" in the next decade or two is harder to predict. It is even harder to predict what that will mean. We already have personal self-driving vehicle systems. The system currently is called a "taxi", and includes a replaceable human driver that needs refuelling separately from the rest of the system. Most of us choose to own one or more vehicles for various reasons, and don't just use taxis now. The cost/benefit ratio might shift a bit, so some people will decide not to buy their own car, but many of us will still own vehicles for a range of reasons not driven solely by net dollar cost, even if we don't "drive" them. These private vehicles will still need a place to "park" while the owner is otherwise occupied. We aren't all going to send them out as autonomous Uber while we run our errands.

There will be a significant period where autonomous/driverless cars/trucks and human-driven cars/truck must co-exist. The roads have to be suitable for both kinds simultaneously.

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3800 Post by Llessur2002 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:41 pm

All valid questions, it will certainly be an interesting transition, but it will happen eventually so we might as well plan around it.
rev wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:04 pm
The reality is, we are decades away from driverless cars being the norm.
And my main point is that we are similarly decades away from an extensive freeway network (other than the NS motorway) - not that I'm aware of any level of government proposing one be built, but the opinion of several posters on this thread is that further new large roads will be required after this project is completed. I was just offering a counter-opinion that I don't think any new inner metropolitan roads will be required given the timeframe it would take to plan, fund and construct them.

With regards to how automation will enable better efficiency of our existing road network - as we eventually approach full automation then presumably intersections will be able to support a much higher flow of traffic as vehicles will be able to start/stop in perfect syncronisation thus increasing the number of cars through the intersection at each cycle. Traffic signals could be optimised around volume of traffic approaching from each given direction, reducing the time spent waiting when no traffic is flowing in other directions. It may well even be possible to do away with traffic controls completely as cars are able to intelligently navigate intersections and each other without direction from an external signal. Speeds of cars across the road network could be controlled to reduce the inflow of vehicles to certain areas or intersections etc etc etc. There are lots of possibilities.

So, if the impact of intersections are reduced or even eliminated by automation then what we are left with is a network of 4 and six lane arterial roads enabling traffic to flow as freely as any freeway.

My two cents obviously - let's see what shifts start to happen over the next 10 years or so.

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3801 Post by SBD » Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:50 pm

Grade-separated intersections will always have higher maximum throughput than at-grade intersections.
Grade separation allows two vehicles to be over the same point of ground at the same time, so no matter how good the AI is at finding the gaps in a stream of traffic and slotting between them, it can't beat not needing a gap at all. This is especially true for intersections where the majority of the traffic goes straight across - such as commuters going in/out of the city crossing transport going past it on South Road/Grand Junction Road/Portrush Road/Cross Road.
AI and sensors might mean that the vehicles can platoon with millimetres between each one, and narrower lanes so there is one more lane on each main road, but we are still not going to want to spend most of the journey stopped at (virtual) traffic lights.

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3802 Post by claybro » Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:27 pm

Llessur2002 wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:41 pm
And my main point is that we are similarly decades away from an extensive freeway network (other than the NS motorway) - not that I'm aware of any level of government proposing one be built, but the opinion of several posters on this thread is that further new large roads will be required after this project is completed.
Not entirely true. IA have been asking for proposals to link the SE Freeway with a proposed N/S link (now the under progress as the N/S Motorway) for some time now. Once the Superway was completed, it locked in South Road as the North/South route, and from that point the remainder was only a matter of time. Cross road is the only viable route to be considered so far. This is considered to be separate and additional to any proposed link to the northern suburbs. Just because a series of useless state governments has not moved any further with this does not mean it is not being requested for from those at a Federal level. Like the n/S motorway, the state will be dragged kicking and screaming by the Feds into this project, almost as soon as the N/S motorway is complete. It does not mean there will not also be a route planned to the Northern suburbs via a more easterly route. What the transport and logistics industry doesn't understand, is why it is not already in the planning stage, so the state can start requesting funding.

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3803 Post by Llessur2002 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:32 pm

claybro wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:27 pm
Llessur2002 wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:41 pm
And my main point is that we are similarly decades away from an extensive freeway network (other than the NS motorway) - not that I'm aware of any level of government proposing one be built, but the opinion of several posters on this thread is that further new large roads will be required after this project is completed.
Not entirely true. IA have been asking for proposals to link the SE Freeway with a proposed N/S link (now the under progress as the N/S Motorway) for some time now. Once the Superway was completed, it locked in South Road as the North/South route, and from that point the remainder was only a matter of time. Cross road is the only viable route to be considered so far. This is considered to be separate and additional to any proposed link to the northern suburbs. Just because a series of useless state governments has not moved any further with this does not mean it is not being requested for from those at a Federal level. Like the n/S motorway, the state will be dragged kicking and screaming by the Feds into this project, almost as soon as the N/S motorway is complete. It does not mean there will not also be a route planned to the Northern suburbs via a more easterly route. What the transport and logistics industry doesn't understand, is why it is not already in the planning stage, so the state can start requesting funding.
Sorry for the misunderstanding - my comment was excluding the NS motorway and a link to/from the SE freeway which I understand is already under consideration (albeit early) and primarily freight-related. I was more addressing the talk of Modbury freeways and inner and outer ring road freeways, inner metro MATS style interchanges etc to service personal vehicle journeys which crops up quite often.

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3804 Post by kymbosa » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:59 pm

The state government has conceded the completion date for the Darlington road upgrade has blown out by at least six months, and it won't be finished until well into 2020.

https://twitter.com/9newsadel/status/11 ... 83392?s=21

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3805 Post by aceman » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:25 pm

anyone who drives through Darlington regularly would see that there is no way this section would be complete by the end of this year. half way through next year is still pushing it.

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3806 Post by ChillyPhilly » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:38 pm

Many of us felt it was behind schedule even in the early stages of the project.
Our state, our city, our future.

All views expressed on this forum are my own.

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3807 Post by rev » Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:29 am

Llessur2002 wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:41 pm
All valid questions, it will certainly be an interesting transition, but it will happen eventually so we might as well plan around it.
rev wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:04 pm
The reality is, we are decades away from driverless cars being the norm.
And my main point is that we are similarly decades away from an extensive freeway network (other than the NS motorway) - not that I'm aware of any level of government proposing one be built, but the opinion of several posters on this thread is that further new large roads will be required after this project is completed. I was just offering a counter-opinion that I don't think any new inner metropolitan roads will be required given the timeframe it would take to plan, fund and construct them.

With regards to how automation will enable better efficiency of our existing road network - as we eventually approach full automation then presumably intersections will be able to support a much higher flow of traffic as vehicles will be able to start/stop in perfect syncronisation thus increasing the number of cars through the intersection at each cycle. Traffic signals could be optimised around volume of traffic approaching from each given direction, reducing the time spent waiting when no traffic is flowing in other directions. It may well even be possible to do away with traffic controls completely as cars are able to intelligently navigate intersections and each other without direction from an external signal. Speeds of cars across the road network could be controlled to reduce the inflow of vehicles to certain areas or intersections etc etc etc. There are lots of possibilities.

So, if the impact of intersections are reduced or even eliminated by automation then what we are left with is a network of 4 and six lane arterial roads enabling traffic to flow as freely as any freeway.

My two cents obviously - let's see what shifts start to happen over the next 10 years or so.
What you describe, fully automated cars on the road only wont happen for the better part of a century.
And by then youd think our population would be over 2 million so there'd be tens of thousands more vehicles on the roads.

What would the time savings be anyway, a couple minutes at most? Even if traffic flows better, you still need motorways. Freight will still be a thing. The need to get from one side to the other faster will still exist.

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3808 Post by RetroGamer87 » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:14 pm

ralmin wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:29 pm
SBD wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:22 pm
Drill a tunnel through the hill from the lower arrestor bed on the South Eastern Freeway, to come out on the North South Motorway on the vacant land near Ackland Street, perhaps with incentives for Olympic Industries and Parmalat to find new sites. there aren't many dairies in that part of Adelaide any more.
If a tunnel connection to the south-eastern freeway is required, it only needs to be 4 km long to get from the lower arrestor bed to Kays Road in Torrens Park, without passing under any houses at all. From there it can follow Springbank Road and Daws Road to the north-south motorway, taking advantage of the upgraded intersection at Goodwood Road. That said, I agree with the other posters that this isn't a priority as freight traffic should avoid the south-eastern freeway.

Image
Is your proposed tunnel for trucks only or could I drive my car through it?

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3809 Post by HeapsGood » Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:26 pm

You could probably just cut most of that, no need for tunnel in many spots.
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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3810 Post by SBD » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:29 pm

HeapsGood wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:26 pm
You could probably just cut most of that, no need for tunnel in many spots.
It would be an impressive cutting!

According to Google Maps terrain layer, the arrestor bed is about 220m altitude. Kays Road is about 140m. For that alignment, a bridge over Brownhill creek would be required, but the hill between the creek and Randell park is over 220m, and the ridge between the creek and the arrestor bed reaches over 300m.

My more northerly alignment goes through a lower bit of the mountain, but would need to be tunnelled under the suburbs as it would be in an area not used to traffic noise now, and with no east-west main roads to upgrade.

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