[U/C] North-South Motorway

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SBD
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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3496 Post by SBD » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:03 pm

[Shuz] wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:49 am
I can see that $2.4b would allow for either an elevated or surface level freeway through the Tram to Tonsley (T2T2) stretch, but not a trench or tunnels.
What would be the social impact on the area of a Superway-style elevated freeway between the tram and Tonsley? It could give nice views of the CBD skyline from a new angle in places.

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[U/C] [U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3497 Post by ChillyPhilly » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:08 pm

I'm not sure where their thinking is coming from by describing tram to Darlington as the 'final' bit.

I do know - as written in the Scoping Report - that the Telstra station near Cross Road is a concern in that, if demolished, would take up to half a decade to relocate.

The good news about this stretch is that unlike T2T, it's mostly commercial property.
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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3498 Post by [Shuz] » Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:42 pm

SBD wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:03 pm
[Shuz] wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:49 am
I can see that $2.4b would allow for either an elevated or surface level freeway through the Tram to Tonsley (T2T2) stretch, but not a trench or tunnels.
What would be the social impact on the area of a Superway-style elevated freeway between the tram and Tonsley? It could give nice views of the CBD skyline from a new angle in places.
As a former resident of that area, I believe the the social impact would actually be quite minimal, because that along that stretch of South Road, there are very few (if any) east-west traffic movements from residential streets. Access is pretty limited and consists of mostly left-in left-out only movements. People tend to stick to the major east-west thoroughfares (i.e. Raglan Avenue-Edward Street, Cross and Daws Roads) to access their work, education, shops, recreation and community services.
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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3499 Post by claybro » Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:40 pm

[Shuz] wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:42 pm
SBD wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:03 pm
[Shuz] wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:49 am
I can see that $2.4b would allow for either an elevated or surface level freeway through the Tram to Tonsley (T2T2) stretch, but not a trench or tunnels.
What would be the social impact on the area of a Superway-style elevated freeway between the tram and Tonsley? It could give nice views of the CBD skyline from a new angle in places.
As a former resident of that area, I believe the the social impact would actually be quite minimal, because that along that stretch of South Road, there are very few (if any) east-west traffic movements from residential streets. Access is pretty limited and consists of mostly left-in left-out only movements. People tend to stick to the major east-west thoroughfares (i.e. Raglan Avenue-Edward Street, Cross and Daws Roads) to access their work, education, shops, recreation and community services.
Agree entirely Shuz. Never quite got the angst by some regarding this stretch. It is a shemozzle of low grade, poorly maintained shopfronts and vacant buildings, with very poor accessibility, dirty, noisy polluted and grubby. Bulldozing the lot and carving a path through either elevated or lowered would be a vast improvement, and the cost of a tunnel would achieve little additional benefit. In fact a tunnel would lead to no improvement to the visual surface environment. I think since the opening of T2T, people actually realise how much better it would be.

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3500 Post by NTRabbit » Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:39 pm

I've been told an elevated superway anywhere between Torrens and Darlington has been categorically ruled out at all levels (due to noise pollution first, and residents fighting "visual pollution" second), and tunnel or trench are the only options that will ever be considered, fwiw

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3501 Post by aceman » Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:32 pm

can someone please explain to me how the section between the tram line and tonsley is the final piece??

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3502 Post by SBD » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:29 pm

aceman wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:32 pm
can someone please explain to me how the section between the tram line and tonsley is the final piece??
I think Shorten's language made the project about a freeway to get commuters to the CBD, not a freight route to bypass it. With that perspective, the section between the tram line and the Torrens is unnecessary as Anzac Highway provides the required city access, and construction would disrupt commuter traffic flows along Richmond, Sir Donald Bradman and Henley Beach Roads. It would also drive a need for further work to improve access presently provided by Cross Road from the SE Freeway. Just regarding it as a commuter freeway project appeals to Labor voters ("working families") with cars.

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3503 Post by NTRabbit » Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:08 am

"Final piece" sounds a lot better on TV than "Phase 5 of 9 with only smaller phases remaining"

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3504 Post by ChillyPhilly » Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:24 am

NTRabbit wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:39 pm
I've been told an elevated superway anywhere between Torrens and Darlington has been categorically ruled out at all levels (due to noise pollution first, and residents fighting "visual pollution" second), and tunnel or trench are the only options that will ever be considered, fwiw
Is Cross Road the exception here? The existing overpass was to be (effectively) duplicated, with a trench or tunnel being ruled out around the surrounding area because of the water table.
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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3505 Post by Patrick_27 » Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:41 am

ChillyPhilly wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:24 am
NTRabbit wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:39 pm
I've been told an elevated superway anywhere between Torrens and Darlington has been categorically ruled out at all levels (due to noise pollution first, and residents fighting "visual pollution" second), and tunnel or trench are the only options that will ever be considered, fwiw
Is Cross Road the exception here? The existing overpass was to be (effectively) duplicated, with a trench or tunnel being ruled out around the surrounding area because of the water table.
I was of the understanding that Emerson Crossing was to be bulldozed and rebuilt because it doesn't meet the specs for expressway grade and would also provide an opportunity to burry the train line below Cross Road.

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3506 Post by ChillyPhilly » Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:33 pm

Patrick_27 wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:41 am
ChillyPhilly wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:24 am
NTRabbit wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:39 pm
I've been told an elevated superway anywhere between Torrens and Darlington has been categorically ruled out at all levels (due to noise pollution first, and residents fighting "visual pollution" second), and tunnel or trench are the only options that will ever be considered, fwiw
Is Cross Road the exception here? The existing overpass was to be (effectively) duplicated, with a trench or tunnel being ruled out around the surrounding area because of the water table.
I was of the understanding that Emerson Crossing was to be bulldozed and rebuilt because it doesn't meet the specs for expressway grade and would also provide an opportunity to burry the train line below Cross Road.
Likewise, it's certainly not freeway standard. Perhaps it could have been the service road in this instance.
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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3507 Post by SBD » Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:47 pm

ChillyPhilly wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:33 pm
Patrick_27 wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:41 am
ChillyPhilly wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:24 am


Is Cross Road the exception here? The existing overpass was to be (effectively) duplicated, with a trench or tunnel being ruled out around the surrounding area because of the water table.
I was of the understanding that Emerson Crossing was to be bulldozed and rebuilt because it doesn't meet the specs for expressway grade and would also provide an opportunity to burry the train line below Cross Road.
Likewise, it's certainly not freeway standard. Perhaps it could have been the service road in this instance.
The ten-year strategy (2015) has the road lowered between Ayliffes and Daws Roads and Ashwin Parade to Anzac Highway. It has it elevated over the Torrens and Over Daws Road to north of Edward Street (just south of Emerson Crossing). It notes this provides flexibility for future options for Emerson, but doesn't seem to have a clear plan for it more precise than "future grade separation".

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3508 Post by claybro » Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:24 pm

Emerson will be the problem child of this section. I think a combination of a trenched Motorway, at grade Cross Road, and elevated train may be the easiest to disentangle the lot. Similar to the Port road/ OH train and motorway treatment. It also depends on future plans to upgrade Cross Road to interchang with the Motorway.

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3509 Post by Aidan » Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:26 pm

Is the Emerson overpass really that steep? I know the gradient's not ideal, but it doesn't look anywhere near steep enough to be unsuitable.
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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3510 Post by SBD » Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:13 pm

Aidan wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:26 pm
Is the Emerson overpass really that steep? I know the gradient's not ideal, but it doesn't look anywhere near steep enough to be unsuitable.
It would probably need to be wider to support three lanes each way at 80km/h anyway. Gallipoli Underpass is considered to be "done", but Emerson is not, so the people who know must have decided it isn't good enough in some sense.

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