[U/C] North-South Motorway

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aceman
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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3661 Post by aceman » Wed May 08, 2019 9:32 pm

Jim wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 8:46 pm
aceman wrote:I'm tipping they'll have to start the entire wall from scratch and use pre cast, any smart people out there suggest what might need to happen?

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Looking at the news clip tonight there appeared to be some precast already going over some of the spray on. Wondering if the spay on was just going to hold the bank to the precast covered it. Surprised if it the spray on was to be the permanent fix with out mesh in it.


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surely the spray on that's just collapsed wasn't going to be the final state that the wall was going to be at completion?? no reo nothing?? surely not??

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3662 Post by bits » Wed May 08, 2019 9:52 pm

The same wall heading north of the collapse has precast concrete lining it the entire way.
It very much looks like this was a temp cover until they capped it like the rest. The finish just isn't at the same level as everything else in the project.

I assume the precast covered sections will be reviewed also, as perhaps there is questions over how secure that is now also. What's to say the water couldn't push and make the precast sections float and collapse down in to the roadway also.
If that is deemed unfit then it looks like a massive problem to fix.

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3663 Post by Norman » Wed May 08, 2019 11:40 pm

ghs wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 9:12 pm
Norman wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 8:58 pm
The contractor.
I am sorry but I don't accept that argument. DPTI shouldn't be contracting work out to a business that isn't professional.
They will now need to remove all of the shortcrete causing major delays to the project. Royal Adelaide Hospital type
problems all over again.
The businesses involved ARE professional businesses. Mistakes can happen, for whatever reason, no matter how professional a business is.

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3664 Post by ghs » Wed May 08, 2019 11:53 pm

Norman wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 11:40 pm
ghs wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 9:12 pm
Norman wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 8:58 pm
The contractor.
I am sorry but I don't accept that argument. DPTI shouldn't be contracting work out to a business that isn't professional.
They will now need to remove all of the shortcrete causing major delays to the project. Royal Adelaide Hospital type
problems all over again.
The businesses involved ARE professional businesses. Mistakes can happen, for whatever reason, no matter how professional a business is.
I am sorry but what's happened here isn't just a small mistake. A contractor that is professional would have enough foresight to see that
the soil would most likely fall down and cause problems. This is going to cost tens of millions to fix up. As another person mentioned earlier you now have to question how safe the entire project is. Royal Adelaide hospital all over again.

When a retaining wall is built they put ag. pipe at the back of wall. Do you think they just do that for fun ?

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3665 Post by SBD » Thu May 09, 2019 8:38 am

ghs wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 11:53 pm
Norman wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 11:40 pm
ghs wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 9:12 pm

I am sorry but I don't accept that argument. DPTI shouldn't be contracting work out to a business that isn't professional.
They will now need to remove all of the shortcrete causing major delays to the project. Royal Adelaide Hospital type
problems all over again.
The businesses involved ARE professional businesses. Mistakes can happen, for whatever reason, no matter how professional a business is.
I am sorry but what's happened here isn't just a small mistake. A contractor that is professional would have enough foresight to see that
the soil would most likely fall down and cause problems. This is going to cost tens of millions to fix up. As another person mentioned earlier you now have to question how safe the entire project is. Royal Adelaide hospital all over again.

When a retaining wall is built they put ag. pipe at the back of wall. Do you think they just do that for fun ?
So, without access to the plans, we know that the construction company and two independent sets of geotechnical engineers thought that what they did was OK (and we don't know yet if it was intended to be the final finish). Rod Hook on the radio raised the possibility that the Government could have some liability if it failed to identify and remove a stormwater pipe, but I haven't heard anyone else suggest that possible cause.

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3666 Post by Jim » Thu May 09, 2019 9:23 am

aceman wrote:
Jim wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 8:46 pm
aceman wrote:I'm tipping they'll have to start the entire wall from scratch and use pre cast, any smart people out there suggest what might need to happen?

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
Looking at the news clip tonight there appeared to be some precast already going over some of the spray on. Wondering if the spay on was just going to hold the bank to the precast covered it. Surprised if it the spray on was to be the permanent fix with out mesh in it.


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surely the spray on that's just collapsed wasn't going to be the final state that the wall was going to be at completion?? no reo nothing?? surely not??
ImageImage


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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3667 Post by how good is he » Thu May 09, 2019 11:58 am

Maybe they thought the shotcrete (with no reo etc) would suffice as they were putting pre-cast panels in front if it? Anyone know if this has been the standard treatment for T2T and our other motorways?

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3668 Post by Llessur2002 » Thu May 09, 2019 1:11 pm

how good is he wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 11:58 am
Maybe they thought the shotcrete (with no reo etc) would suffice as they were putting pre-cast panels in front if it? Anyone know if this has been the standard treatment for T2T and our other motorways?
Haven't seen it anywhere else on T2T from memory but it has been used on stretches of the Torrens Junction cutting.

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3669 Post by claybro » Thu May 09, 2019 1:44 pm

Llessur2002 wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 1:11 pm
[quote="how good is he" post_id=180211 time=<a href="tel:1557368923">1557368923</a> user_id=5799]
Maybe they thought the shotcrete (with no reo etc) would suffice as they were putting pre-cast panels in front if it? Anyone know if this has been the standard treatment for T2T and our other motorways?
Haven't seen it anywhere else on T2T from memory but it has been used on stretches of the Torrens Junction cutting.
[/quote]

I'm sure I saw it in some progress photos someone posted for T2T.

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3670 Post by Llessur2002 » Thu May 09, 2019 1:48 pm

claybro wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 1:44 pm
Llessur2002 wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 1:11 pm
how good is he wrote: Maybe they thought the shotcrete (with no reo etc) would suffice as they were putting pre-cast panels in front if it? Anyone know if this has been the standard treatment for T2T and our other motorways?
Haven't seen it anywhere else on T2T from memory but it has been used on stretches of the Torrens Junction cutting.
I'm sure I saw it in some progress photos someone posted for T2T.
Really? Pretty sure the end result is all piled and clad walls - will take a proper look next time I drive through.

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3671 Post by SBD » Thu May 09, 2019 3:44 pm

Llessur2002 wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 1:48 pm
claybro wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 1:44 pm
Llessur2002 wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 1:11 pm


Haven't seen it anywhere else on T2T from memory but it has been used on stretches of the Torrens Junction cutting.
I'm sure I saw it in some progress photos someone posted for T2T.
Really? Pretty sure the end result is all piled and clad walls - will take a proper look next time I drive through.
The last photo in http://www.sensational-adelaide.com/for ... 76#p170676 looks like there might be shotcrete behind the cladding. It's hard to tell for certain from that angle though. The cladding does not look like a structural retaining wall, either.

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3672 Post by AG » Fri May 10, 2019 10:10 am

The walls on the T2T section are secant pile walls (these are structural) covered with pre-cast panels (non-structural).

The Darlington section looks like they've tried to go for unreinforced shotcrete and relying on gravity for it to stay in place (ummm, what?!).

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3673 Post by rev » Fri May 10, 2019 1:59 pm

AG wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 10:10 am
The walls on the T2T section are secant pile walls (these are structural) covered with pre-cast panels (non-structural).

The Darlington section looks like they've tried to go for unreinforced shotcrete and relying on gravity for it to stay in place (ummm, what?!).
So they've made a mistake..? or something was overlooked...did they let a junior fresh out of Uni make decisions and sign things off?
Either way, its better that this happened now before it was open to the public.

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3674 Post by SBD » Fri May 10, 2019 2:27 pm

rev wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 1:59 pm
AG wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 10:10 am
The walls on the T2T section are secant pile walls (these are structural) covered with pre-cast panels (non-structural).

The Darlington section looks like they've tried to go for unreinforced shotcrete and relying on gravity for it to stay in place (ummm, what?!).
So they've made a mistake..? or something was overlooked...did they let a junior fresh out of Uni make decisions and sign things off?
Either way, its better that this happened now before it was open to the public.
Tom Koutsantonis was on the radio again this morning complaining about the Infrastructure Minister allegedly failing to do his job. I still haven't seen anything to indicate that this has any responsibility or liability with the government. The state has a contract for someone else to design and build a road. If they designed it without adequate provision for aquifers, and have to redo a section of earth wall as a proper retaining wall, at their cost, and within the contracted timeframe, then why should the minister get angry, or disrupt his schedule?

If it turns out to be due to something the government knew or should have known and failed to advise in the tender documents, then a red face or anger might be appropriate, but at the moment, this seems to be entirely within the scope of the contract, with the possible exception of closing a bit more of the old/surface road near the excavation. Hopefully the contractor is big enough to absorb the cost overruns of this project.

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#3675 Post by Jim » Fri May 10, 2019 3:04 pm

SBD wrote:
rev wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 1:59 pm
AG wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 10:10 am
The walls on the T2T section are secant pile walls (these are structural) covered with pre-cast panels (non-structural).

The Darlington section looks like they've tried to go for unreinforced shotcrete and relying on gravity for it to stay in place (ummm, what?!).
So they've made a mistake..? or something was overlooked...did they let a junior fresh out of Uni make decisions and sign things off?
Either way, its better that this happened now before it was open to the public.
Tom Koutsantonis was on the radio again this morning complaining about the Infrastructure Minister allegedly failing to do his job. I still haven't seen anything to indicate that this has any responsibility or liability with the government. The state has a contract for someone else to design and build a road. If they designed it without adequate provision for aquifers, and have to redo a section of earth wall as a proper retaining wall, at their cost, and within the contracted timeframe, then why should the minister get angry, or disrupt his schedule?

If it turns out to be due to something the government knew or should have known and failed to advise in the tender documents, then a red face or anger might be appropriate, but at the moment, this seems to be entirely within the scope of the contract, with the possible exception of closing a bit more of the old/surface road near the excavation. Hopefully the contractor is big enough to absorb the cost overruns of this project.
Certain amount of Karma happening here? I would have to agree the government is actually just the customer here and it’s a bit stiff to blame the customer for the product. Unfortunately for the powers that be I think we all can remember an unrelenting campaign to vilify the previous minister Patrick Conlon for the same type of stuff ups. The south road tram bridge and every time a pipe burst come to mind. Unfortunately its politics, I am sure in good time it will be fixed, it will only be a political stuff up if the tax payer has to pay the bill.


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