[U/C] M2 North-South Motorway

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claybro
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[U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

#4681 Post by claybro » Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:43 pm

how good is he wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:15 pm
Im wondering if they are stretching it out because of funding? I know the Fed Govt committed $5b but if the total estimate is $11b (seemingly ridiculously high), are they stalling until they can afford it? I mean they have also committed to other big billion dollar projects like the New W&C so how much has the State Govt got left to spend on top of the $30b debt (and likely falling revenues)?

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.ade ... 0505a424a6
They definately are delaying to avoid spending the money. But there will never be a better time to commit to such a large project.
1. Cost of borrowing is at record lows.
2. Unemployment is high (more workers, lower cost)
3. The federal government is throwing money at infrastructure like drunken sailors on shore leave.
4. Government funded infrastructure will lead to a reduction in unemployment in the near term, and much better efficiency in the long term when things pick up.
In his announcement all Knoll could point to was what "we" had opened...presumably he meant "we" as the state...not the Libs, because all the things "we" have opened are the Northern Connector (Labor), and soon Darlington (Labor), and Regency progressing (Really a Labor initiated project).
It just annoys me that at these press briefings and releases, they are not held accountable and these things pointed out. When the Federal government announced the next lot of funding, the N/S Adelaide motorway will not be considered if they are not careful, because they will still be pfaffing around with soil testing. The constant delay is also now allowing the oposition to start playing politics with the project, rather than just sticking with their original proposal (fair enough), which was to be the fastest and most cost effective option anyway.

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[U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

#4682 Post by d3v310per » Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:12 pm

The next thing I would add Claybro is that these announcements are hardly new... it is to disguise the fact they aren't doing a whole lot but to the uninformed general public it appears they are "getting on with the job". Stephan Knoll is out of his depth.

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[U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

#4683 Post by SBD » Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:01 pm

Labor was opposed to GlobeLink, and Koutsantonis was happy to be photographed with his constituents objecting to the possibility of the Thebarton Theatre being caught up in roadworks, but now Malinauskas is critical because these projects have been shelved or are progressing slowly to find options that have less impact on the surrounding environment.

Politics trumps rationality again. :wallbash:

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[U/C] Re: [U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

#4684 Post by ChillyPhilly » Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:09 pm


rev wrote:
Underground testing to begin on North-South corridor, amid concerns projects are in the slow lane
Matt Smith, Political Editor, The Advertiser
July 19, 2020 8:00pm
Subscriber only

Underground engineering experts will start probing along the final stretch of the North-South Corridor within weeks, as part of the final steps in determining how to finish the state’s largest ever road infrastructure project.

Geotechnical on-site investigations are expected to begin in August, across about 130 test sites, which have been carefully chosen to minimise impacts to motorists, businesses and residents.

The works will add weight to speculation the State Government is looking at multiple tunnels to finish the most difficult, final 10.5km stretch of the North-South Corridor.

But it also confirms a decision on the State Government’s favoured option, which was expected by mid 2020, is still months away, as the Opposition launches a campaign raising concerns about the slow progress of infrastructure projects across the state.

Transport Minister Stephan Knoll told The Advertiser the number and location of test sites were designed to assess the geotechnical and hydrogeological conditions of a wide area, and gain a comprehensive picture of the underlying soil and groundwater environment.

He stressed the locations did not necessarily correspond to areas that would be impacted by the final design.

“This geotechnical work will help provide more detail about the viability of tunnels now we have put them back on the agenda after Labor ruled them out when they were in government,” he said.
https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/sou ... c6b8523a2c

I thought all these geotechnical investigations had been completed years ago - hence how the Weatherill Government came to its preferences for certain stretches of South Road. For example, a trench or tunnel around Cross Road was not viable because of groundwater.

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[U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

#4685 Post by SRW » Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:21 pm

SBD wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:01 pm
Labor was opposed to GlobeLink, and Koutsantonis was happy to be photographed with his constituents objecting to the possibility of the Thebarton Theatre being caught up in roadworks, but now Malinauskas is critical because these projects have been shelved or are progressing slowly to find options that have less impact on the surrounding environment.

Politics trumps rationality again. :wallbash:
Counterpoint: building an international airport the other side of ranges, demolishing the Thebarton Theatre, and standing still on infrastructure during a recession are all batshit ideas that a rational person should oppose.
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[U/C] [U/C] [U/C] Re: [U/C] Re: [U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

#4686 Post by Norman » Mon Jul 20, 2020 10:14 pm

ChillyPhilly wrote:
rev wrote:
Underground testing to begin on North-South corridor, amid concerns projects are in the slow lane
Matt Smith, Political Editor, The Advertiser
July 19, 2020 8:00pm
Subscriber only

Underground engineering experts will start probing along the final stretch of the North-South Corridor within weeks, as part of the final steps in determining how to finish the state’s largest ever road infrastructure project.

Geotechnical on-site investigations are expected to begin in August, across about 130 test sites, which have been carefully chosen to minimise impacts to motorists, businesses and residents.

The works will add weight to speculation the State Government is looking at multiple tunnels to finish the most difficult, final 10.5km stretch of the North-South Corridor.

But it also confirms a decision on the State Government’s favoured option, which was expected by mid 2020, is still months away, as the Opposition launches a campaign raising concerns about the slow progress of infrastructure projects across the state.

Transport Minister Stephan Knoll told The Advertiser the number and location of test sites were designed to assess the geotechnical and hydrogeological conditions of a wide area, and gain a comprehensive picture of the underlying soil and groundwater environment.

He stressed the locations did not necessarily correspond to areas that would be impacted by the final design.

“This geotechnical work will help provide more detail about the viability of tunnels now we have put them back on the agenda after Labor ruled them out when they were in government,” he said.
https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/sou ... c6b8523a2c

I thought all these geotechnical investigations had been completed years ago - hence how the Weatherill Government came to its preferences for certain stretches of South Road. For example, a trench or tunnel around Cross Road was not viable because of groundwater.
That was a very basic report for the corridor, which was about $10m from memory. If you want a full geotechnical investigation for tunneling the cost will be more around $40-50m.

I very much doubt DPTI has the level of engineering staff that would be able to carry out much of this. These days most (of not all) of this work is contracted out to private companies, and if the government doesn't fund these studies seperate to the department then little or no work gets done.

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[U/C] Re: [U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

#4687 Post by NTRabbit » Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:08 am

ChillyPhilly wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:09 pm
For example, a trench or tunnel around Cross Road was not viable because of groundwater.
Well, something has to go underground at Cross Rd if they're going to grade separate all of the Motorway, South Rd x Cross Rd, and the railway line.

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[U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

#4688 Post by Listy » Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:30 am

Nort wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:38 am
claybro wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:09 am
What the hell is Knoll talking about "tunnels are back on the agenda after Labour ruled them out" ?! The Libs haven't had an agenda for the N/S corridor since MATS. It did not ever include tunnels. In fact the previous Labour government did have an agenda, which incorporated a short tunnel. This guy is either and idiot, dushonest.. or both. Either way, this "survey" buys them more time of not actually doing anything.
It's a silly thing to say unless they have committed to building a tunnel, because then it just looks foolish if they come back and say that the previous government was correct when they ruled out a tunnel as being too difficult.
I think it's very likely they've decided on a tunnel then. Now the Liberal Party just has to work out which direction it will run in peak hour - north or south?

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[U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

#4689 Post by TorrensSA » Tue Jul 21, 2020 6:19 am

It's also going to be one lane to save money! And "Accidentally" built too low for large trucks lol. Then Knolls mate just happens to build smaller trucks that fit, oh and it will be a truck O'Bahn tunnel for safety reasons!. These trucks will also be allowed on the current O'Bahn, $7 toll each way!

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[U/C] Re: [U/C] Re: [U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

#4690 Post by ChillyPhilly » Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:12 am

NTRabbit wrote:
ChillyPhilly wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:09 pm
For example, a trench or tunnel around Cross Road was not viable because of groundwater.
Well, something has to go underground at Cross Rd if they're going to grade separate all of the Motorway, South Rd x Cross Rd, and the railway line.
Labor's plan in the Scoping Report was for, basically, a duplication of the existing overpass over Cross Road.
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[U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

#4691 Post by SBD » Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:20 am

SRW wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:21 pm
SBD wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:01 pm
Labor was opposed to GlobeLink, and Koutsantonis was happy to be photographed with his constituents objecting to the possibility of the Thebarton Theatre being caught up in roadworks, but now Malinauskas is critical because these projects have been shelved or are progressing slowly to find options that have less impact on the surrounding environment.

Politics trumps rationality again. :wallbash:
Counterpoint: building an international airport the other side of ranges, demolishing the Thebarton Theatre, and standing still on infrastructure during a recession are all batshit ideas that a rational person should oppose.
I wasn't convinced about the airport either in the short-medium term. The railway seemed to provide the best built environment outcome, shifting the trains to a gentler grade, away from the city.

"Standing still" seems true about the "hard bit" of North-South Corridor. They are doing R2P, bridges at both ends of Augusta Highway, Flinders rail extension and a few metropolitan intersections, so not completely still overall.

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[U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

#4692 Post by rev » Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:40 am

A bit of a thought... How are they going to know if a tunnel or tunnels are possible for the whole section, part of the section, or not at all, if they don't do these more detailed works?
This geotechnical stuff seems pretty standard and reasonable.

To say that they are not doing anything, not moving forward, and that this is just another "delay" is a bit ridiculous.

You can't just expect them to commit to do a tunnel, tunnels, surface motorway, elevated motorway, trench, combination of all of that or whatever, without doing the proper preliminary work.

IF Labor had done the full range of preliminary works, then why didn't they get it underway? Funding from the feds has been on the table for years, before the Marshall government came into power here.
On the contrary if you look at Regency to Pym, announced by Labor, underway by the Liberals. A relatively easy section.

They might be playing politics, as politicians do, but the last remaining sections are the most complex.
Why? Because every man and his dog has something to say about it. Because some want to preserve some old houses and some near derelict theatre. Because some sections are hemmed in by new buildings like a giant Bunnings.

In all honesty I think the Liberal government would prefer to do a combination of a trench and surface motorway but are looking at a tunnel to avoid all the complications and nuisances of that, but the tunnel option has the major problem of cost. I don't for one think that it's going to cost $11 billion+ like the construction industry claims (because they have their own preferences), but it would be astronomical compared to any other infrastructure ever built in South Australia.

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[U/C] M2 North-South Motorway

#4693 Post by Vasco » Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:43 am

rev wrote:A bit of a thought... How are they going to know if a tunnel or tunnels are possible for the whole section, part of the section, or not at all, if they don't do these more detailed works?
This geotechnical stuff seems pretty standard and reasonable.

To say that they are not doing anything, not moving forward, and that this is just another "delay" is a bit ridiculous.

You can't just expect them to commit to do a tunnel, tunnels, surface motorway, elevated motorway, trench, combination of all of that or whatever, without doing the proper preliminary work.

IF Labor had done the full range of preliminary works, then why didn't they get it underway? Funding from the feds has been on the table for years, before the Marshall government came into power here.
On the contrary if you look at Regency to Pym, announced by Labor, underway by the Liberals. A relatively easy section.

They might be playing politics, as politicians do, but the last remaining sections are the most complex.
Why? Because every man and his dog has something to say about it. Because some want to preserve some old houses and some near derelict theatre. Because some sections are hemmed in by new buildings like a giant Bunnings.

In all honesty I think the Liberal government would prefer to do a combination of a trench and surface motorway but are looking at a tunnel to avoid all the complications and nuisances of that, but the tunnel option has the major problem of cost. I don't for one think that it's going to cost $11 billion+ like the construction industry claims (because they have their own preferences), but it would be astronomical compared to any other infrastructure ever built in South Australia.
I don’t think anyone is criticising the commissioning of detailed geotechnical studies, it is the timing. The liberals had indicated they would be making a decision of the final project design to be announced towards the end of last year.
How can you make a decision when the planning studies haven’t even been done?


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[U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

#4694 Post by rev » Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:35 am

Politics & a global pandemic. A bit of hindsight.

This section will get done sooner rather then later.
There's too much pressure to do it, from the public and from vested industry groups. You can't have a motorway on either end and a huge bottleneck clusterfuck in the middle indefinitely.
It's actually irrelevant which major party is in government in that regard.

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[U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

#4695 Post by claybro » Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:47 pm

rev wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:35 am
Politics & a global pandemic. A bit of hindsight.

This section will get done sooner rather then later.
There's too much pressure to do it, from the public and from vested industry groups. You can't have a motorway on either end and a huge bottleneck clusterfuck in the middle indefinitely.
It's actually irrelevant which major party is in government in that regard.
Absolutely agree with this Rev, but the constant delays caused by the constant change of approach already cost SA completion of the rail rlectrication previously. Whatever government is in should immediately implement their studies and plans. The previous government knew for probably 10 years they would have to bite the bullet on this section, and only at the end of the last term came up with a cohesive method. The Libs come in, start from scratch and get distracted by THE most expensive and longest option after nearly 3 years in power. This should have commenced already 5 years ago. Maybe I am just fearful of SA losing federal funds when the next cyclone hits QLD and everything gets diverted up there, or poor old Victoria with their self inflicted mess gets more billions in funding to fix their fuckup at the expense of this vital project.

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