[COM] Goodwood Junction Rail Underpass | $110m

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fishinajar
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[COM] Re: PRO: Bowden Rail Tunnel | 1km $418m

#16 Post by fishinajar » Thu May 26, 2011 7:44 pm

Bowden will be the first real TOD, and will be a riper, close to parks, serviced by tram and train, perfect. Ok, so the government, developer, and planners might not want to split it in half and have heavy rail rumbling through every 10 minutes, even if they are sleek electric trains. It will certainly make for a much nicer end result than an overpass and ramp or elevated setup Ricecrackers. Though $418M! Does seem pretty heavy. Doing things properly does cost though remember. Ref Boston Big Dig.

Extending the tramline first as Aidan suggests, even just so it could meet up with a temporary train platform just past the site would make great sense to reduce the impact of the improvement on existing train passengers.

But sensible discussion aside...A tunnel would be freakin awesome!

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[COM] Re: PRO: Bowden Rail Tunnel | 1km $418m

#17 Post by spiller » Thu May 26, 2011 7:53 pm

As far as i'm concerned, Aidan, comparing the Keith hospital with a railway tunnel is as good as apples with oranges. It's never going to be "one or the other", this is politics! Those messenger comparisons were nothing but a piece of simplistic journalism, designed to cause a stir amongst readers who don't really follow developments or political issues in any sort of depth. I regularly frequent park tce as my folks live in prospect. That stretch of road is one of the most congested outer CBD areas in Adelaide. Furthermore, having a level crossing so damn close to a major intersection which is MASSIVE and includes a tramway as well is bloody dangerous. I have seen cars queue over the crossing many times and other cars stuck in the middle of port road at a red light. It's not an acceptable stretch of road.

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[COM] Re: PRO: Bowden Rail Tunnel | 1km $418m

#18 Post by crawf » Thu May 26, 2011 11:31 pm

Park Terrace is only going to get more congested once the Bowden Village gets underway, so really that level crossing needs to be removed. However I'm not sure if a 1km tunnel is the answer, though it would be a pretty cool development.

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[COM] Re: PRO: Bowden Rail Tunnel | 1km $418m

#19 Post by AG » Thu May 26, 2011 11:45 pm

I'm not sure if building a 1km tunnel is necessarily the only solution, an elevated railway and elevated Bowden Station could work as well providing the north-south routes through Bowden are kept clear. Would be less expensive too I would think and the elevated railway could still be hidden from view if designed appropriately.

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[COM] Re: PRO: Bowden Rail Tunnel | 1km $418m

#20 Post by Aidan » Fri May 27, 2011 1:47 am

AtD wrote:Adian:

Two way traffic numbers for: total (commercial)
Park Terrace: 43,700 (2,200)
Brighton Road: 34,600 (1,850)
Cross Road Unley Park: 32,700 (1,250)
Torrens Road: 21,000 (950)
Leader Street: So trivial they don't even publish it.
http://www.transport.sa.gov.au/transpor ... olumes.asp
Yes, Park Terrace has a lot of traffic on it. In terms of road traffic volume it's the second busiest level crossing after Port Road (Woodville). But when you consider number of tracks, length of trains, number of lanes on the road and amount of traffic in the peaks, it suggests the delays are likely to be far higher on Torrens Road. And when signals preventing the long trains from moving are taken into account, Cross Road and Leader Street are the worst. And I know Leader Street's far less busy than the arterials, but it is on a bus route.

The crossing on Park Terrace Bowden has 3 lanes eastbound and 4 westbound. The number of vehicles per lane is highest on Brighton Road (2 northbound 2 southbound).

Delays at Bowden should be minimized by coordinating the lights with the crossing - though if spiller's post is anything to go by, this isn't working very well.

BTW spiller, of course it's an apples and oranges comparison - but if an apple costs as much as a bag of oranges, surely it's one worth making?

And fishinajar, the most notable thing about the Boston Big Dig wasn't that it was done properly, it was that the cost escalated greatly as the project progressed slowly.
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[COM] Re: PRO: Bowden Rail Tunnel | 1km $418m

#21 Post by rubberman » Fri May 27, 2011 7:42 am

spiller wrote:As far as i'm concerned, Aidan, comparing the Keith hospital with a railway tunnel is as good as apples with oranges. It's never going to be "one or the other", this is politics! Those messenger comparisons were nothing but a piece of simplistic journalism, designed to cause a stir amongst readers who don't really follow developments or political issues in any sort of depth. I regularly frequent park tce as my folks live in prospect. That stretch of road is one of the most congested outer CBD areas in Adelaide. Furthermore, having a level crossing so damn close to a major intersection which is MASSIVE and includes a tramway as well is bloody dangerous. I have seen cars queue over the crossing many times and other cars stuck in the middle of port road at a red light. It's not an acceptable stretch of road.
Well, let's compare some apples with apples then.

Alternative 1

A 1km tunnel that makes a nice fat profit for the developers of Bowden plus eliminates a crossing for motorists who then have to stop at a set of lights a hundred metres or so away, or

Alternative 2

Grade separation of the crossing, and a grade separated interchange at Port Road to enable traffic to go direct to Adam St/Port Road avoiding lights altogether for the majority of movements. With change left over to grade separate the East Terrace/Port Road/George St intersection?

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[COM] Re: PRO: Bowden Rail Tunnel | 1km $418m

#22 Post by fabricator » Fri May 27, 2011 10:44 am

Mr Hook said the tunnel would begin in the parklands about 500m southeast of Park Tce and travel under the freight line to reduce track and road congestion.

He said the tunnel would end immediately after Chief St and include an underground train station in the heart of the Bowden development.

“If we get the Commonwealth funds ... there’s no point in bringing the Outer Harbor line half way up to Park Tce,” Mr Hook said.

“You might as well take it under Park Tce to take the crossing out and if you’re going under Park Tce, you might as well stay down and build the Bowden Station underground.
Wait, did we just add $100+m to the cost because "you might as well" put the station underground as well.
Is Rod Hook seriously saying its OK to waste money if the federal government is paying ?
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[COM] PRO: Bowden Rail Tunnel | 1km $418m

#23 Post by AtD » Fri May 27, 2011 11:48 am

That's a strange way to look at it? It's just a proposal at this stage. Neither the federal nor state treasuries have agreed to anything yet by the sounds of it.

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[COM] Re: PRO: Bowden Rail Tunnel | 1km $418m

#24 Post by spiller » Fri May 27, 2011 12:31 pm

I agree, its slightly amusing that people are chirping up saying money should be spent elsewhere when money hasnt even been allocated for this yet. I agree, 418 million is a lot for a "tunnel" but 100 mil gets you not a lot these days when we are talking about major infrastructure developments. The tunnel may not be THE answer, but Park Tce in the way that it is now, will not be suffucient for the next 10 years. Rubberman, Alternative two seems like a good plan but do you think all of that grade separation is cheap?

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[COM] Re: PRO: Bowden Rail Tunnel | 1km $418m

#25 Post by Wayno » Fri May 27, 2011 12:48 pm

It's odd that the govt is talking about this now unless they intend to make a start prior to the 2014 election. But maybe they did not intend to actively promote at this time - could have been found by some investigative journalist i suppose.
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[COM] Re: PRO: Bowden Rail Tunnel | 1km $418m

#26 Post by fishinajar » Fri May 27, 2011 12:51 pm

Aidan wrote:And fishinajar, the most notable thing about the Boston Big Dig wasn't that it was done properly, it was that the cost escalated greatly as the project progressed slowly.
Absolutely! It went way over. But...it is now done, and the difference it has made, and will make well into the future in providing for both uninterrupted transport and community living will be huge. At least it had better be, they certainly paid for it.

Also, remember that park terrace and port roads form part of the "ring road", which admittedly is not overly used as such at present for traffic going around instead of through the city, but even with south road works the requirement for a functional city bypass ring route will have substantial value in Adelaides future. This tunnel may be seen as contributing to such.
Last edited by fishinajar on Fri May 27, 2011 12:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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[COM] Re: PRO: Bowden Rail Tunnel | 1km $418m

#27 Post by fishinajar » Fri May 27, 2011 12:53 pm

AG wrote:I'm not sure if building a 1km tunnel is necessarily the only solution, an elevated railway and elevated Bowden Station could work as well providing the north-south routes through Bowden are kept clear. Would be less expensive too I would think and the elevated railway could still be hidden from view if designed appropriately.
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[COM] Re: PRO: Bowden Rail Tunnel | 1km $418m

#28 Post by Wayno » Fri May 27, 2011 2:21 pm

fishinajar wrote:Also, remember that park terrace and port roads form part of the "ring road"
Agree this project will somewhat help in that respect, maybe with some lengthy slip lanes being added to help with traffic turning left out of park terrace onto port road.

Come to think of it, the Adelaide & Nth Adelaide Ring Road is almost worthy of it's own thread - it has many 'special' challenges (including brittania roundabout). Suggest one of you guys with spare time generate a Ring Road vision :-)
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[COM] Re: PRO: Bowden Rail Tunnel | 1km $418m

#29 Post by crawf » Fri May 27, 2011 8:46 pm

I noticed this morning that cars were banking up dangerously close to the very busy intersection of Park Terrace, Grange and Port Roads whist the railway crossing was activated.

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[COM] Re: PRO: Bowden Rail Tunnel | 1km $418m

#30 Post by Aidan » Fri May 27, 2011 9:06 pm

crawf wrote:I noticed this morning that cars were banking up dangerously close to the very busy intersection of Park Terrace, Grange and Port Roads whist the railway crossing was activated.
Did you notice where they were coming from? Because the obvious thing to do in that situation, which I thought was the procedure they always use, is for all traffic heading that way to be assigned a red light until the crossing's clear - except for left turning traffic from Port Road which won't get in anyone's way.
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