News & Discussion: Road Rules

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[Shuz]
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Re: SA rural roads reduced to 100kph

#46 Post by [Shuz] » Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:06 pm

crawf wrote:The only thing that will decrease road fatalities, is less dickheads on the road.
I believe that driver education is the answer - the whole notion of obtaining your licence, Ls and Ps, is all and well, but after that there are no checks and balances (unless one has a medical condition) to ensure that people are fit for driving thereafter. I believe that driver education needs to be enforced more regularly - ie; a test every 3-5 years > people should have to do a course to refresh their memory on road rules, and have "bad habits" identified and corrected by professional instructors. Simple things like checking blind spots, adjusting mirrors and driving with TWO hands on the wheel would go a long way to improving safety on the roads.

There's always going to be dickheads on the road, unfortunately, but some dickheads can be "reformed" and become better drivers.

Rehabilation > Punishment.
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Re: SA rural roads reduced to 100kph

#47 Post by Nathan » Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:30 pm

Waewick wrote:can Australians not drive as well as Europeans?
On a whole, Australians are particularly bad drivers.

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Re: SA rural roads reduced to 100kph

#48 Post by ac83 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:57 pm

[Shuz] wrote:I concede that I do not drive; however, when I do 110kph is a bit too fast, even 100kph is - Maybe that's just me and my lack of experience. I'm not particularly comfortable being in the car with my family members (the most of them who live in the country) when they drive at speeds of 110-120kph, more if overtaking.

By reducing the speed just a bit, maybe we can save a couple of lives. Time will tell. I think it will - It's a mind thing too, 100 is an easier number to remember than 110. People are that stupid. Hopefully that'll stick in people's heads to identify with 100 as the limit, and no more. It seems to me that having the limit at 110 actually seems to subconciously encourage speeding - we're already doing above 100, so what's another 10kphs on that, or 20?

Think of it this way - you're a bit chubby and your weight's a bit yo-yo... sitting on 95kgs... 97 the next month.. slowly creeping upwards.. bam! You hit the 100. It triggers a subconcious reaction, a state of fear/panic/alarm that you've reached 100 and maybe you ought to lose few kilos. I see speeding and speed limits in the same way. You're driving, it's a bit fast, maybe a bit faster, and bam, you hit 100, you ought to slow down a bit. I think that's plenty more than enough...
Your argument isn't too strong. To have an opinion on something which you such little experience on is bizarre. Australia's a big place which thousands of kilometres between major cities. Yes it's only 10kph difference but even 110kph can be daunting. To put it into perspective what would you rather do? Drive at a speed YOU'RE comfortable with, say 130kph, concentrating entirely on the road ahead of you and behind (for faster cars) keeping in mind that a faster speed will increase you're concentration OR drive at 100kph continiously looking at your speedo to ensure you don't travel over too fast (you may say cruise control but cruise isn't always appropriate) and lack full attentiveness at the road ahead. I know what I'd rather be doing.

Don't get me wrong. 100kph has it's place. The Victor Harbor road is 100kph and that is fast enough. So is Main South Rd, Goolwa to Mt Barker etc... Other roads which are predominantly straight and level 100kph can be more dangerous than travelling a bit faster.
[Shuz] wrote:
crawf wrote:The only thing that will decrease road fatalities, is less dickheads on the road.

I believe that driver education is the answer - the whole notion of obtaining your licence, Ls and Ps, is all and well, but after that there are no checks and balances (unless one has a medical condition) to ensure that people are fit for driving thereafter. I believe that driver education needs to be enforced more regularly - ie; a test every 3-5 years > people should have to do a course to refresh their memory on road rules, and have "bad habits" identified and corrected by professional instructors. Simple things like checking blind spots, adjusting mirrors and driving with TWO hands on the wheel would go a long way to improving safety on the roads.

There's always going to be dickheads on the road, unfortunately, but some dickheads can be "reformed" and become better drivers.

Rehabilation > Punishment.
This is a valid point. To think we can do a test as young as 16.5 years (or is it 17 now?) and that is ALL we need for life. That is very scary. No road rule refresher programs, no compulsory advanced driving schools, hell what's stopping your parents falsifying your log book to say you've done the 50 hours? Absurd! This is where the buck stops in my opinion and this is what has to be done now.

This 100kph reduction bullshit in my opinion is complete revenue raising and ultimately will not do a thing to the road toll. In fact it will probably raise it. Consider NT as an example.

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Re: SA rural roads reduced to 100kph

#49 Post by Wayno » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:05 pm

This database let's you do your own road fatality analysis. Unfortunately it lacks hte ability to 'normalise' results (e.g. per capita, % of male vs female drivers, etc).

Some other stats and reports here.
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Re: SA rural roads reduced to 100kph

#50 Post by warpspeed » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:44 pm

I wish they'd take a serious look at raising the speed limit on the national highways to 130km/h.

The biggest killer on the open road is not "speed", it's fatigue, inattention and inexperience.

The government need to place more of a focus on training younger people how to drive properly. As part of driver training, they should take them out on a skid pan, teach them how a car feels when you lose control. Take them on a dirt road and make them slide off a corner at speed, so they know what a car feels like when you lose control. Then they should show them how to identify such things and how to drive SAFELY to the CONDITIONS. Just because it says 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100, 110, doesn't mean you MUST sit on that speed. If you don't feel comfortable driving at 100, then don't, drive at whatever speed is most comfortable to you, in the current situation that you're in.

Drivers Licenses should also be more expensive to gain, and easier to lose if you continually do the wrong thing. A drivers license is a priviledge, not a right. Make folks respect the plastic card they have in their wallet, and make them earn it.

The whole "speed kills" mantra is complete and utter b/s. It's simply an easy scapegoat for politicians who feel the need to "do something" to make themselves look "responsible", and throw in a bit of revenue raising while you're at it.

Hidden speed cameras do nothing to help the death toll or road safety, they're all about revenue raising. If the government was serious about road safety they'd be investing in driver training, and having a much more visible and active police presense on the road, not focussing so much on speeding, but rather RBT's and Drugs, Defects, Driving manner and courtesy, etc.

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Re: SA rural roads reduced to 100kph

#51 Post by Waewick » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:08 am

100kph is a joke - the road between Gawler and Nuri should be 130kph at atleast.

as they say, teach the drivers how to drive - but the state is flat broke at the moment so I guess it all makes sense.

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Re: SA rural roads reduced to 100kph

#52 Post by Waewick » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:09 am

Nathan wrote:
Waewick wrote:can Australians not drive as well as Europeans?
On a whole, Australians are particularly bad drivers.
never driven in Europe I gather.

I have never been so scared for my life than driving through Europe

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Re: SA rural roads reduced to 100kph

#53 Post by mokeystyley » Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:56 am

Wayno wrote:This database let's you do your own road fatality analysis. Unfortunately it lacks hte ability to 'normalise' results (e.g. per capita, % of male vs female drivers, etc).

Some other stats and reports here.

Great stats, but nothing to support that speed is a factor in deaths. If the Government is using "Speed Kills" as their reasoning, where are they getting the information from?

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Re: SA rural roads reduced to 100kph

#54 Post by mshagg » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:00 pm

warpspeed wrote:I wish they'd take a serious look at raising the speed limit on the national highways to 130km/h.
Not going to happen when we have the highway driving discipline of a bunch of trained monkeys. Even our road rules are conducive to accidents on multi lane highways.

A couple of simple but effective examples:

How many people drive in the middle lane of a 3 lane highway even if the left hand lane is free?
How many people have safety markers in their car in the event of a breakdown?

Of course the government reducing the limit on country roads and proclaiming "it's ok, everything is safe now" is equally as frustrating. There will be sections of road, times of day, weather conditons etc that mean it is unsafe to do 80km/hr, let alone 110. But dont worry, the government says it's OK to do 100 - so it must be safe :wallbash:

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Re: SA rural roads reduced to 100kph

#55 Post by Waewick » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:17 pm

That is your mentality – my mentality is I’m confident doing x speed in these conditions, just because you aren’t why do I need to suffer ?

It is more nanny state bullshit supported by conservative bleeding hearts trying to protect everyone from themselves.

I await the day the reduce walking speeds of footpaths to avoid uncomfortable dealings with people in the same path as you or blind corners.

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Re: SA rural roads reduced to 100kph

#56 Post by [Shuz] » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:29 pm

If it were up to me; I'd have a simple, but effective campaign re; speed limits. "Remember the five to stay alive" - referring to the five denominations of speed limits and associated categories/definitions which each limit covers. It really is very self-explanatory, and I think would do a lot to get rid of the excessive signage and change in limits everywhere. (50s, 70s, 25s, 110s, 90s, etc)

20kph - carparks, laneways, shared spaces, school zones, etc - self explantory, except school zones to be marked as is - with white zig-zags.

40kph - suburban side streets/CBD - distinguished by white lines

60kph - Main roads (2x2 or more) - distinguished by yellow lines

80kph - hilly roads/arterial roads/expressways (yellow lines & 80 speed signs)

100kph - country roads/freeways (white lines and 100 speed signs)

:2cents:
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Re: SA rural roads reduced to 100kph

#57 Post by Waewick » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:50 pm

make the 100 - 120 and I'd be happy.

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Re: SA rural roads reduced to 100kph

#58 Post by crawf » Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:14 pm

School zones should be 40kph like every other state, 25kph is far too slow.

I agree with CBD and some suburban roads being 40kph, especially along narrow inner city streets but the rest of them should stay at 50. God I remember the days when it was the norm to fly down suburban streets at 60!
Waewick wrote:It is more nanny state bullshit supported by conservative bleeding hearts trying to protect everyone from themselves.

I await the day the reduce walking speeds of footpaths to avoid uncomfortable dealings with people in the same path as you or blind corners.
Agreed. It would not surprise me with Australia's strong growing nanny state mentality.

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Re: SA rural roads reduced to 100kph

#59 Post by warpspeed » Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:14 pm

[Shuz] wrote: 20kph - carparks, laneways, shared spaces, school zones, etc - self explantory, except school zones to be marked as is - with white zig-zags.

40kph - suburban side streets/CBD - distinguished by white lines

60kph - Main roads (2x2 or more) - distinguished by yellow lines

80kph - hilly roads/arterial roads/expressways (yellow lines & 80 speed signs)

100kph - country roads/freeways (white lines and 100 speed signs)

:2cents:
Here's my version of what you've said:

30kph - carparks, laneways, shared spaces, school zones, etc - self explantory, except school zones to be marked as is - with white zig-zags.

50kph - suburban side streets/CBD - distinguished by white lines

60kph - Main roads (2x2 or more) - distinguished by yellow lines and 60 speed signs

80kph - hilly roads/arterial roads/major city roads with slip lanes - yellow lines & 80 speed signs

100kph - country roads - white lines and 100 speed signs or open road and unmarked, unsignposted, default country speed limit

up to 130kph - freeways, expressways and other controlled access roads - speed signs to be electronically adjustable and speeds adjusted down as appropriate for environmental and traffic conditions.

up to 130kph - all national highways - minimum road width with sealed shoulders to cater for 3 large vehicles side-by-side*** - lines marked white with cats-eyes, reflective roadside markers, rippled lane edge, signposted as 110, but 130 permitted when safe to do so. Make it law for car headlights to be on 24/7. Major intersections with slip lanes.


*** This is something that I'd really like to see happen nationally, it'd increase safety and help to cater for the idiots who underestimate overtaking, I've seen a few close calls - it'd allow three cars to pass each other with none of them having to go off into the dirt shoulder. On some of the roads today, they're wide enough that one can get half off into the dirt, it might be okay, provided they don't lose control of their car. It would also, for example, give trucks and caravans room enough to pull aside a little to aid in overtaking for cars behind them. Some of the national highway is so narrow and has no shoulder that no one would have any hope.

The only thing you'd have to be careful of with the yellow lines is solely relying on those - there'd be plenty of folk who'd find it difficult to see the difference between the two (colour blindness, etc.)

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Re: SA rural roads reduced to 100kph

#60 Post by Wayno » Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:39 pm

Other factors are definitely used in determining rural speed limits. Thinking off the top of my head; factors probably include vision in reasonable weather conditions, vehicle stopping distances, and human reaction times.

I'm guestimating, but let's say it takes 30m to stop from a speed of 100km/h. Add 3/4 of a second delay (human response time - from point of mental reaction to applying the brakes) and we're probably up to 50m or so. Also add 'perception distance' which is how far your car travels from when you see a hazard until your brain recognizes it (add another 20m) and we're at 70m. Now double it for approaching vehicles (relative speed is 200-220km/h, stopping distance is ~140m). Further, a 'worst car on the road' factor might be applied due to the existence of aged cars (there's heaps in SA) as they can't stop as well as modern cars (weakest link in the chain).

Other factors would be road condition, driver age, east-west roads having sun glare at dawn/dusk, risk of wildlife crossing the road, the rev-head factor, and a few more i can't think of right now.

It makes no sense to set speed limits based on individual driver confidence levels. That's just asking for trouble. 130km/h is crazy. Stopping distance increases exponentially, not linearly, as speed increases.

Factors working in the other direction (allowing higher speed) would include divided highways, crash/wire barriers to stop cars veering onto oncoming traffic, etc.
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