News & Discussion: Regional Transport

Threads relating to transport, water, etc. within the CBD and Metropolitan area.
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claybro
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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Rail Transport & Infrastruct

#361 Post by claybro » Thu Aug 13, 2015 5:07 pm

rev wrote:
EBG wrote:Why has there been almost no public comment about the fact that, as of right now, GW has ceased operating trains to Loxton and Pinaroo. As of Aug 2015 all wheat will transported by road to Tailem Bend then reloaded and railed to Port Adelaide. How can this be more efficient? GW then expects the local Council in the Malee to pay to upgrade the Roads!
Who is GW?
If it's a private company, then it's their problem how they transport their products. You can't force them to use a specific mode of transportation.
No Rev. It is everyones problem how they transport grain. To take this off rail and onto road makes it a problem for us as we pay for the roads. Roads which at the best of times in the Mallee are second rate and outright dangerous. Now image at grain carting time, hundreds of extra truck journeys tearing up already poor roads. The councils can ill afford to pay for the roads and will hold their hand out to State for more road funding. They have gone from having to pay a fee to use the rail, to paying nothing to use the roads.
Viterra is a Canadian company I believe, so we are now allowing them to ruin our infrastructure at our expense. Granted, the grain they handle does allow for export dollars into SA.

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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Rail Transport & Infrastruct

#362 Post by rev » Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:25 am

claybro wrote:
rev wrote:
EBG wrote:Why has there been almost no public comment about the fact that, as of right now, GW has ceased operating trains to Loxton and Pinaroo. As of Aug 2015 all wheat will transported by road to Tailem Bend then reloaded and railed to Port Adelaide. How can this be more efficient? GW then expects the local Council in the Malee to pay to upgrade the Roads!
Who is GW?
If it's a private company, then it's their problem how they transport their products. You can't force them to use a specific mode of transportation.
No Rev. It is everyones problem how they transport grain. To take this off rail and onto road makes it a problem for us as we pay for the roads. Roads which at the best of times in the Mallee are second rate and outright dangerous. Now image at grain carting time, hundreds of extra truck journeys tearing up already poor roads. The councils can ill afford to pay for the roads and will hold their hand out to State for more road funding. They have gone from having to pay a fee to use the rail, to paying nothing to use the roads.
Viterra is a Canadian company I believe, so we are now allowing them to ruin our infrastructure at our expense. Granted, the grain they handle does allow for export dollars into SA.
But you see my dear friend Claybro, they will have more trucks on the roads and more trucks means more registrations and licenses to renew, as well as more taxes collected from more employees(drivers), and that also means the trucking companies used will have to pay more company pay roll tax and so on.

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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Rail Transport & Infrastruct

#363 Post by claybro » Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:31 am

[
rev wrote:But you see my dear friend Claybro, they will have more trucks on the roads and more trucks means more registrations and licenses to renew, as well as more taxes collected from more employees(drivers), and that also means the trucking companies used will have to pay more company pay roll tax and so on.
Yes I get that Rev, the only problem is, that all that revenue through rego, licencing, payroll tax gets spread amongst general revenue, to service mainly the government department involved with rego/ licencing etc. and not specifically spent on the roads used. The council and state government can choose not to spend money on any given road until it is literally falling to bits, as is often the case. Additional trucks will lead to a very rapid deterioration of the roads in regional SA as the money will not be spent by government nearly quickly enough or in an adequate amount, causing problems for ALL users, not just the grain carters. On the other side of the equation, a rail route like the road can become as dilapidated as the operator allows, but once it is falling apart will mainly only effect the efficiency of the grain trains, and not the community in general. A railway is more direct user pays and like a tolled freight road of sorts.

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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Rail Transport & Infrastruct

#364 Post by SBD » Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:52 pm

EBG wrote:Why has there been almost no public comment about the fact that, as of right now, GW has ceased operating trains to Loxton and Pinnaroo. As of Aug 2015 all wheat will transported by road to Tailem Bend then reloaded and railed to Port Adelaide. How can this be more efficient? GW then expects the local Council in the Mallee to pay to upgrade the Roads!
This is not only happening in SA. I stopped in a small country town in rural Victoria a few weeks ago. The silos were being emptied into B-double trucks, including some from SA companies. The lady in the General Store was quite happy to be getting the business from all the drivers buying lunch.

A difference to SA is that this line has recently been upgraded for improved passenger travel, rather than being closed because the grain is moved to road transport (I think it also has general freight too, but not sure of that).

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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Rail Transport & Infrastruct

#365 Post by Vee » Wed Aug 26, 2015 4:46 pm

This is ridiculous and very unfair!
So Economy Class goes, (Sleeper cars only) following withdrawal of Federal Govt subsidies. Broken Hill residents, including Veterans and pensioners, face increased fares to travel on the Indian Pacific to Adelaide.

Broken Hill residents 'penalised' by planned withdrawal of economy class train seats.
Broken Hill residents will be "penalised" when a planned cutback to its passenger train service to Adelaide comes into effect, a local councillor says.

Great Southern Rail (GSR), which operates the outback town's sole railway link to its nearest capital city, has confirmed it will cut economy class seats from 2016.
GSR said it would only run the more expensive sleeper cars from July.

It follows an announcement earlier this month that fares would increase and cutbacks made to the frequency of services because of a withdrawal in Federal Government subsidies.

Broken Hill councillor and former MP Peter Black said many people would find it more difficult to travel to the nearest capital once subsidies and economy class seating were cut.
"We should not be penalised simply because of where we live," he said.

"Many people could not possibly afford to travel to places like Adelaide by air.
"We need our train. We need the train to continue to be affordable to the people of Broken Hill, for whatever reason. And there are many."

Pensioners in Broken Hill said they needed GSR's Indian Pacific train to Adelaide and Sydney for medical appointments and day trips.
About 40 to 50 per cent of travellers on the Indian Pacific and Ghan routes receive some benefit, with 95 per cent receiving a 30 per cent fare reduction.

The company earlier this month confirmed that fares would increase, saying a sleeper for war veterans on the Indian Pacific between Adelaide and Broken Hill would increase from $83 to $689.
It said veterans represented about 2 to 3 per cent of its business.

The company said 95 per cent of people affected by the rise in ticket cost would experience fare increases of $20 to $30 on Adelaide to Sydney on a gold sleeper, and by up to $150 between Adelaide and Alice Springs.

GSR said it planned to provide a 20 per cent discount to all concession card holders for next year's schedules before the full increase was introduced.

The Federal Government earlier this month said it was up to state governments to provide subsidies for pensioners.
The South Australian Government, however, said it was unlikely to step in to fill the gap in subsidies.
ABCNews:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-26/b ... ck/6725496

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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Rail Transport & Infrastruct

#366 Post by monotonehell » Thu Aug 27, 2015 12:17 pm

The federal government might want to take note that Broken Hill is in New South Wales and their closest capital city is in South Australia before saying things like, "it was up to state governments to provide subsidies for pensioners." Who is to provide the subsidies for these pensions?
Exit on the right in the direction of travel.

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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Rail Transport & Infrastruct

#367 Post by crawf » Thu Aug 27, 2015 3:37 pm

A wise move from the SA Government

Though what is Victoria contributing?
South Australia Government to provide $1 million to support Great Southern Rail Overland service
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/sout ... 7501364652

SOUTH Australian taxpayers will spend $1 million to keep the struggling The Overland train service between Melbourne and Adelaide operating.

Transport Minister Stephen Mullighan said the money would be provided over the next three years to the service’s operator, Great Southern Rail.

“We are a strong supporter of the Overland service and we want to see it continue,” Mr Mullighan said.

Under the agreement GSR had agreed to move staff from interstate to its existing head office in Adelaide.

South Australian contractors and suppliers also would be given priority for maintenance and capital works.


Mr Mullighan said about 100,000 people used the company’s Overland, Ghan and Indian Pacific services each year.

“The Overland service plays an important role for the South Australian tourism industry,” he said.

Mr Mullighan said GSR would spend $100,000 annually promoting South Australian tourism.

The future of the historic train service beyond the end of the year was in doubt as it has been reliant on government support.

GSR this month announced it would also scale back iconic transcontinental train journeys The Ghan and Indian Pacific following a $9 million federal budget cut.

The Overland has been relying on funding support from the South Australian and Victorian state governments.

The SA Government currently contributes $300,000 annually, with funding of some sort in place for about 15 years.

Until today, bookings on The Overland could only be made until the end of this year, with no services scheduled beyond that.

The service has been running since 1887, when it was known as the Intercolonial Express. Its name was changed to The Overland in 1926.

After World War II it became the first train in the world to generally offer showers in its sleeping cabins.

Currently it operates as a twice-weekly, 10.5 hour daytime service, with travellers able to take their car with them on the train.

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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Rail Transport & Infrastruct

#368 Post by Llessur2002 » Tue May 31, 2016 10:09 am

The case for regional fast rail in South Australia

Forget the pipe dream of a superfast train connecting the eastern capitals - fast regional rail makes a lot of economic sense in a state like South Australia.

Image
A high-speed bullet train in central China's Hubei province. Photo: EPA/SHEPHERD ZHOU

There has been much talk over many years of a superfast rail link from Melbourne to Brisbane via Canberra and Sydney.

Most recently, in 2013, the Commonwealth Department of Infrastructure and Regional Development released a study by the multidisciplinary engineering firm AECOM, proposing a 1748km railway linking Melbourne, Canberra, Sydney, Newcastle and Brisbane, with a design speed of 400km/hr (upgradable to 500), a 40-year construction timetable, and an eye-watering price of $114 billion.

This is fantasy stuff. No railway in the world does 400km/h, far less 500. The Europeans do 200-320km/hr. The Chinese briefly tried 350km/hr, but soon dialled it back to 300 due to excessive maintenance and safety concerns. The AECOM study’s need for speed arises from the objective to compete time-wise with planes. This also means the trains can’t make many stops. With such a strategy, there is little opportunity to utilise “value capture” financing.

The super-high speed also drives up construction costs massively, because of the tunnels, bridges and earthworks to make the track straight and flat enough to accommodate 400km/h passing through the Great Dividing Range, as well as the tunnelling required in Sydney to get fast from the outskirts to the CBD.

The focus on providing a fast, heavily-subsidised alternative to air travel between the eastern capitals is misplaced. There is already a fast, inter-city service provided by competing, unsubsidised airlines. The focus should instead be on cutting down the spatial footprint of the capital cities and reinvigorating country towns by providing fast and affordable commuter services between them and their capital cities. Shorter distances allow slower design speeds to be used, with correspondingly lower construction costs.

No other Australian state is so culturally and politically dominated by its capital as is South Australia by Adelaide. It is a bizarre and unnecessary feature of South Australia’s geography that 80% of the population is in one giant (space-wise) city. Such a situation would not be tolerated in Europe.

Regional very fast rail would attract population into our regional towns, boost their growth, reallocate our population towards cheaper, better, housing, and lead to an increase in real output and living standards.

It also turns out that South Australia, with its mostly flat terrain, is well configured geographically to allow such a regional fast rail development to be constructed at far lower cost than proposals to link the eastern capitals. Such a regional fast rail development would assist the decentralisation of population and economic activity away from Adelaide, and put a limit on Adelaide’s commuting times and geographical spread.

Three South Australian regional very fast rail projects come to mind as worth investigating:

* Adelaide – Victor Harbor (via Mount Barker, Strathalbyn and Goolwa);
* Adelaide – Whyalla (via Port Pirie and Port Augusta); and
* Adelaide – Mount Gambier (via Murray Bridge, Bordertown and Naracoorte).

In the present article, we look at the first of these projects. A future article will look at the other projects.

A fast Adelaide – Victor Harbor railway would serve a present permanent exurban population in the vicinity of the railway line of more than 60,000. This could be expected to grow rapidly as commuters spread quickly into these highly-desirable areas with the advent of the very fast train.

With a combination of upgrades to the existing track and new deviations to replace slow sections, adapting AECOM’s figuring for a superfast train, the very fast line could be built for about $1.3 billion (1% of the superfast, eastern states proposal). It would take about 49 minutes from Adelaide to Victor Harbor at a top speed of 200km/h, allowing for three stops – Mount Barker, Strathalbyn and Goolwa. Mount Barker would be about 20 minutes from Adelaide Railway Station, Strathalbyn about 29 minutes, and Goolwa about 44 minutes from Adelaide.

By comparison, without allowing for traffic, Google maps estimates 32 minutes to Mount Barker, 51 minutes to Strathalbyn, more than 80 minutes to Goolwa (depending on the route chosen) and 74 minutes to Victor Harbor. Commuting at peak hours would obviously take longer – up to 50% longer.

Image
Fast-growing Mt Barker should be on a fast regional rail route.

According to a study published by The Advertiser five years ago, the peak-hour commute between Adelaide and Mount Barker was then about 50 minutes. By now, it would be longer. Commuting by high speed rail to Adelaide CBD would cut commuting time from Mount Barker in half.

There were about 18,000 workers resident in Mount Barker in December 2015, an estimated 60%, or 11,000, of whom are estimated to commute to Adelaide daily. Judging by past experience elsewhere, fast rail could be expected to capture about 20% of this traffic – or more than 2000 commutes (4000+ trips in total). Other, non-work-related travel would add to the total.

But the real prize, for both commercial and development objectives, lies in induced demand – additional demand made possible by the railway itself. If a very conservative 5% of the projected population increase could be diverted to the proposed rail corridor as regular commuters, within a decade the railway would have more than 8500 daily commuters, on top of users diverted from existing transport modes. It is thus reasonable to conclude that there could be a near-term commuter market for high speed rail to Victor Harbor of at least 20,000 trips per day, comparable to existing demand on the Seaford Line.

A fare structure of $10 one-way from Adelaide to Mount Barker, $20 to Strathalbyn and $30 to Victor Harbor would appear to be competitive (based on coach fares and surveyed commuter time preferences). If passenger numbers rose rapidly to an average of 20,000 trips to or from Adelaide per day at a fare averaging $20 each way, the line would earn revenue of about $150 million/year – a gross return on investment of 11.5% without accounting for value capture.

The spill-over gains to non-passengers from the Adelaide-Victor Harbor very fast train – decongesting the Hills freeway, reducing pressure on the Adelaide urban boundary, reducing commuting time within Adelaide itself, as well as the increase in property values in towns where the train stopped – would warrant a state and relevant local government contribution that could be determined by cost-benefit analysis.

Hence, such a project, subsidised by warranted state and local government capital contributions, could be highly attractive to a private investor.

Richard Blandy is an Adjunct Professor of Economics in the Business School at the University of South Australia and is a weekly contributor to InDaily. Edwin Michell is a Canberra-based engineer who writes a blog called Hot Rails – Regional Fast Rail for Australia.


http://indaily.com.au/business/analysis ... australia/

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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Rail Transport & Infrastruct

#369 Post by Waewick » Tue May 31, 2016 10:46 am

$30 one way to Adelaide from Victor Harbor - I assume this is not aimed at people doing the daily commute?

I love the idea, but I'm not confident that the projected uplift would be there. Silly question is he proposing 2 lines? 1 to Strath via MB and 1 to Victor Harbor? or is this one line?

I don't know how it would work, but a line to Renmark/berri seems to make sense to me as well - already a largish population has all the infrastructure etc.

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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Rail Transport & Infrastruct

#370 Post by Cranjer » Tue May 31, 2016 11:22 am

Same goes for the Strathalbyn fare. $40 per day for a commute! That's almost $10,000 a year. Repayments on spending an extra 200k for a house closer to Adelaide would be similar.

Love the idea but he has grossly over-estimated the revenue...

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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Rail Transport & Infrastruct

#371 Post by mattwinter » Tue May 31, 2016 2:26 pm

Love the article... I've been thinking for a while that a Victor line has got to be viable. I'd have maybe a Port Elliot station, plus Aldgate as well and a stop at Blackwood for transfers to the Belair line. I reckon they could go for 150kmph rather than 200 - more similar to the VLine than a very fast rail. That should bring costs down a little. Fares that high probably aren't viable either.

Obviously crucial to put standard gauge rail into ARS as well. I'd like the government to do some planning around two big projects for rail in SA:
1. The underground city loop, opening up access to the whole CBD including putting underground platforms at ARS and repurposing the current platforms for Regional and interstate rail. I think they'd be be able to turn it into the main bus station for Adelaide as well.
2. Starting a couple of key regional rail services. Victor Harbour and Whyalla would be the obvious initial choices, maybe Mt Gambier, the Riverland and at some point. They could do a daily return service to Ararat as well and replace the overland.

If those two projects happened in the next 20 years it would be a great investment for SA.

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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Rail Transport & Infrastruct

#372 Post by Goodsy » Tue May 31, 2016 3:55 pm

Hey... they stole my idea :(

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=5694

But seriously, we really should be looking into this.

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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Rail Transport & Infrastruct

#373 Post by Waewick » Tue May 31, 2016 4:30 pm

mattwinter wrote:Love the article... I've been thinking for a while that a Victor line has got to be viable. I'd have maybe a Port Elliot station, plus Aldgate as well and a stop at Blackwood for transfers to the Belair line. I reckon they could go for 150kmph rather than 200 - more similar to the VLine than a very fast rail. That should bring costs down a little. Fares that high probably aren't viable either.

Obviously crucial to put standard gauge rail into ARS as well. I'd like the government to do some planning around two big projects for rail in SA:
1. The underground city loop, opening up access to the whole CBD including putting underground platforms at ARS and repurposing the current platforms for Regional and interstate rail. I think they'd be be able to turn it into the main bus station for Adelaide as well.
2. Starting a couple of key regional rail services. Victor Harbour and Whyalla would be the obvious initial choices, maybe Mt Gambier, the Riverland and at some point. They could do a daily return service to Ararat as well and replace the overland.

If those two projects happened in the next 20 years it would be a great investment for SA.
It would need to have some wider economic support though.

Victoria upgraded the rail to Bendigo/Ballarat but also put Universities and Government services - mind you Bendgio was large regional centre anyway (bigger than anything in SA) so it only assisted it in cracking the 100k mark in terms of population and then its just kept going.

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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Rail Transport & Infrastruct

#374 Post by fishinajar » Tue May 31, 2016 7:33 pm

Llessur2002 wrote:
The case for regional fast rail in South Australia

Forget the pipe dream of a superfast train connecting the eastern capitals - fast regional rail makes a lot of economic sense in a state like South Australia...

* Adelaide – Victor Harbor (via Mount Barker, Strathalbyn and Goolwa);
* Adelaide – Whyalla (via Port Pirie and Port Augusta); and
* Adelaide – Mount Gambier (via Murray Bridge, Bordertown and Naracoorte)...
http://indaily.com.au/business/analysis ... australia/
I'd be particularly keen to see Adelaide to Wyalla and Adelaide to Mt Gambier happen. Link in and turbo charge our population centres, not to mention Mt Gambier would then be on the way to the Eastern States. Hostile takeover of Portland or Hamilton anyone? *Coughs*

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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Rail Transport & Infrastruct

#375 Post by Goodsy » Tue May 31, 2016 8:11 pm

fishinajar wrote:
Llessur2002 wrote:
The case for regional fast rail in South Australia

Forget the pipe dream of a superfast train connecting the eastern capitals - fast regional rail makes a lot of economic sense in a state like South Australia...

* Adelaide – Victor Harbor (via Mount Barker, Strathalbyn and Goolwa);
* Adelaide – Whyalla (via Port Pirie and Port Augusta); and
* Adelaide – Mount Gambier (via Murray Bridge, Bordertown and Naracoorte)...
http://indaily.com.au/business/analysis ... australia/
I'd be particularly keen to see Adelaide to Wyalla and Adelaide to Mt Gambier happen. Link in and turbo charge our population centres, not to mention Mt Gambier would then be on the way to the Eastern States. Hostile takeover of Portland or Hamilton anyone? *Coughs*
Go big and aim for Warrnambool. Also connecting to Ararat or Warrnambool would give SA access to Victoria's entire rail network as well

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