News & Discussion: Regional Transport

Threads relating to transport, water, etc. within the CBD and Metropolitan area.
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rhino
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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

#496 Post by rhino » Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:38 pm

The WA mining boom did last for approx. 25 years (until late 2007), and they did have money to throw at things they thought might work. Granted, they are suffering financially now, but they have the hindsight of knowing that the Prospector does work.

Here in SA, we have been struggling (compared to WA certainly) since the State Bank collapse, we have not had money rolling in from a mining boom, and we have been numbed into a mindset of "we don't have the cash, and this might not work" . It's a case of needing to change the mindset, but also having the funds to risk. I know it's a chicken-and-egg thing (will the transport build the population, or do we need the population to justify the transport?), but our main problem here in SA is that the money has to come from somewhere, so, where? Health and Education?
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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

#497 Post by claybro » Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:08 pm

rhino wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:38 pm
The WA mining boom did last for approx. 25 years (until late 2007), and they did have money to throw at things they thought might work. Granted, they are suffering financially now, but they have the hindsight of knowing that the Prospector does work.

Here in SA, we have been struggling (compared to WA certainly) since the State Bank collapse, we have not had money rolling in from a mining boom, and we have been numbed into a mindset of "we don't have the cash, and this might not work" . It's a case of needing to change the mindset, but also having the funds to risk. I know it's a chicken-and-egg thing (will the transport build the population, or do we need the population to justify the transport?), but our main problem here in SA is that the money has to come from somewhere, so, where? Health and Education?
The money would come, like in every other state, from a concerted effort to increase the population through a proper immigration programme, and proper associated regional infrastructure planning to deal with the additional population. The infrastructure plan is then assessed on the needs of an increasing population by the Feds. The regional rail system in SA and indeed the Overland train was being run down/closed well before the State Bank collapse, and continues since the State Bank collapse. Specifically regarding regional WA trains, they have been in operation, like SA since well before the mining boom, and are still in operation, with improved rolling stock AFTER the mining boom. The mining boom has nothing to do with regional rail in WA, or metropolitan freeways for that matter, that have continued to develop regardless of mining boom or bust. Its called planning.

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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

#498 Post by rhino » Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:04 pm

So, in effect, what you're saying is that while every other state in the country has apparently gone ahead and planned for the future, every government here in South Australia since Dunstan sold the SAR to the commonwealth, has done none / very little of that? Why would that be? Perhaps because that is the way South Australians wanted it. I'm not including you and me here BTW, but ever since the days of the MATS plan, South Aussies have had a reluctance to move ahead. It's frustrating, I know, but in the end it comes down to what I said before - a change of mindset is needed, and with it, enough money to entice the population to take a risk.
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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

#499 Post by claybro » Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:21 pm

rhino wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:04 pm
So, in effect, what you're saying is that while every other state in the country has apparently gone ahead and planned for the future, every government here in South Australia since Dunstan sold the SAR to the commonwealth, has done none / very little of that? Why would that be? Perhaps because that is the way South Australians wanted it. I'm not including you and me here BTW, but ever since the days of the MATS plan, South Aussies have had a reluctance to move ahead. It's frustrating, I know, but in the end it comes down to what I said before - a change of mindset is needed, and with it, enough money to entice the population to take a risk.
Rhino, I agree with your sentiment, even as an expat, I love SA, and share the frustration of the lack of decent infrastructure, and the apparent acceptance of the status quo by a large portion of the population. Specifically relating to the regional trains though, and economical argument aside, it surely cant be THAT difficult or costly to get some Bombardier Vlocity train sets made up out of Dandenong, and run them at a decent speed with decent frequency from Adelaide to Melbourne at least. Stop at the major towns, and run local buses from those. The main track I believe is well capable of 160km/h in sections -at least 130km/h over most. There is already the population to support this. There is the activity to support this (at least in football season), there is just a lazy do nothing attitude at all levels of transport administration in SA.

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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

#500 Post by ChillyPhilly » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:04 pm

Maybe we'll see some real progress when the irrelevant dinosaur baby boomers of the past die off.
Our state, our city, our future.

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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

#501 Post by PD2/20 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:07 pm

ChillyPhilly wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:04 pm
Maybe we'll see some real progress when the irrelevant dinosaur baby boomers of the past die off.
Two points to ponder.

If it wasn't for the previous generations you wouldn't be here.

No one generation has a monopoly of knowledge.

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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

#502 Post by ChillyPhilly » Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:23 pm

PD2/20 wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:07 pm
ChillyPhilly wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:04 pm
Maybe we'll see some real progress when the irrelevant dinosaur baby boomers of the past die off.
Two points to ponder.

If it wasn't for the previous generations you wouldn't be here.

No one generation has a monopoly of knowledge.
Correct on all counts, but there is such a thing as new and old knowledge. Knowledge, like attitudes, grows old.
Our state, our city, our future.

All views expressed on this forum are my own.

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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

#503 Post by Heardy_101 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:11 pm

Been a while since I've posted here.

The SA Regional Rail Alliance have been quite busy and as such theres too much to add here.

I encourage everyone to check out our website

www.saregionaltrainscampaign.com

Feel free to add comment here :)
www.facebook.com/SARegionalRailAlliance

www.saregionaltrainscampaign.com

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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

#504 Post by rubberman » Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:52 pm

ChillyPhilly wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:04 pm
Maybe we'll see some real progress when the irrelevant dinosaur baby boomers of the past die off.
According to the ABS, gen x+y of voting age have outnumbered boomers for the past 17 years.

So 17 years?

I guess at some point the kids of the X and Y generations will be asking some pointed questions.

Might I suggest that it's past the point where gen x+y should be pointing at boomers.

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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

#505 Post by 1NEEDS2POST » Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:26 pm

Overland train service between Melbourne and Adelaide in doubt
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-26/o ... t/10166190
Patronage is low because it has a long journey time. Eight hour drive to Melbourne or 10 hours 35 minutes on the train. The return journey is 10 hours 5 minutes for some reason. It's also infrequent, there are only two services per week.

The speed problem mainly lies on the other side of the border. When the Adelaide-Melbourne railway was converted to standard gauge, they didn't convert the most direct route. The standard gauge line from Adelaide is fairly direct to Ararat, where it turns south. It reaches Melbourne via Geelong. Meanwhile, the more direct route through Ballarat was left as broad gauge.

The broad gauge route now runs trains at up to 160 km/h. The V/Line train from Ararat to Melbourne takes 2 hours 18 minutes while the Overland takes 3 hours 15 minutes. It seems redundant having the Overland travel all the way to Melbourne when the V/Line service is better. I think the Overland should end at Ararat and passengers transfer onto the V/Line train for the rest of the journey.
Last edited by 1NEEDS2POST on Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

#506 Post by Eurostar » Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:47 pm

Seeing how NSW is retiring the XPT should GSR buy some to use for The Overland or should The Overland be put up for tender, get a company like Virgin to run it?

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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

#507 Post by 1NEEDS2POST » Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:32 pm

Eurostar wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:47 pm
Seeing how NSW is retiring the XPT should GSR buy some to use for The Overland or should The Overland be put up for tender, get a company like Virgin to run it?
Even better, offer a heritage railway to run it. I'd prefer our subsidies go to a not for profit. In NSW, the Lachlan Valley Railway used to operate wheat and container trains in addition to the heritage railway.

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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

#508 Post by Norman » Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:15 pm

Eurostar wrote:Seeing how NSW is retiring the XPT should GSR buy some to use for The Overland or should The Overland be put up for tender, get a company like Virgin to run it?
I'm pretty sure the XPT trains are older than the current Overland rolling stock. The seats are also more uncomfortable than the current Overland seats, and the AC is pretty hopeless as well.

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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

#509 Post by claybro » Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:58 am

1NEEDS2POST wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:26 pm
Overland train service between Melbourne and Adelaide in doubt
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-26/o ... t/10166190
Patronage is low because it has a long journey time. Eight hour drive to Melbourne or 11 hours 5 minutes on the train. The return journey is 9 hours 35 minutes for some reason. It's also infrequent, there are only two services per week.

The speed problem mainly lies on the other side of the border. When the Adelaide-Melbourne railway was converted to standard gauge, they didn't convert the most direct route. The standard gauge line from Adelaide is fairly direct to Ararat, where it turns south. It reaches Melbourne via Geelong. Meanwhile, the more direct route through Ballarat was left as broad gauge.

The broad gauge route now runs trains at up to 160 km/h. The V/Line train from Ararat to Melbourne takes 2 hours 18 minutes while the Overland takes 3 hours 15 minutes. It seems redundant having the Overland travel all the way to Melbourne when the V/Line service is better. I think the Overland should end at Ararat and passengers transfer onto the V/Line train for the rest of the journey.
The problem of changing trains at change of gauge is something that was rightly done away with last century on the Adelaide Melbourne run, but here we are harking back to bad old habits. Would it not be better to have a V locity train converted for standard gauge and have it do Adelaide/Melbourne via Geelong? If the average speed of the V-locity train is 20% faster than the current overland, it would save approx. 3 hours over the current journey. Also it would provide a faster passenger link between Ararat and Geelong. The lighter more agile modern train would make the journey up through the Adelaide hills a bit quicker, further reducing time. Less turnaround time due to not having to shunt the loco around saving cost etc. If the travel time could be brought down to be equivalent to that of car/bus, I believe many more people would choose the train option.

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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

#510 Post by 1NEEDS2POST » Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:19 am

claybro wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:58 am
1NEEDS2POST wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:26 pm
Overland train service between Melbourne and Adelaide in doubt
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-26/o ... t/10166190
Patronage is low because it has a long journey time. Eight hour drive to Melbourne or 11 hours 5 minutes on the train. The return journey is 9 hours 35 minutes for some reason. It's also infrequent, there are only two services per week.

The speed problem mainly lies on the other side of the border. When the Adelaide-Melbourne railway was converted to standard gauge, they didn't convert the most direct route. The standard gauge line from Adelaide is fairly direct to Ararat, where it turns south. It reaches Melbourne via Geelong. Meanwhile, the more direct route through Ballarat was left as broad gauge.

The broad gauge route now runs trains at up to 160 km/h. The V/Line train from Ararat to Melbourne takes 2 hours 18 minutes while the Overland takes 3 hours 15 minutes. It seems redundant having the Overland travel all the way to Melbourne when the V/Line service is better. I think the Overland should end at Ararat and passengers transfer onto the V/Line train for the rest of the journey.
The problem of changing trains at change of gauge is something that was rightly done away with last century on the Adelaide Melbourne run, but here we are harking back to bad old habits. Would it not be better to have a V locity train converted for standard gauge and have it do Adelaide/Melbourne via Geelong? If the average speed of the V-locity train is 20% faster than the current overland, it would save approx. 3 hours over the current journey. Also it would provide a faster passenger link between Ararat and Geelong. The lighter more agile modern train would make the journey up through the Adelaide hills a bit quicker, further reducing time. Less turnaround time due to not having to shunt the loco around saving cost etc. If the travel time could be brought down to be equivalent to that of car/bus, I believe many more people would choose the train option.
Changing at Ararat is not the best solution, but currently it's the easiest way to speed up the journey. I wouldn't be surprised if the Ararat line gets converted to standard gauge in the near future. The Victorian government's Murray Basin Rail Project is currently converting all of the railway lines in Western Victoria to standard gauge, except the Ararat line.

VLocities were designed to be convertible to standard gauge. Running VLocities to Adelaide is not out of the question.

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