News & Discussion: Trams

Threads relating to transport, water, etc. within the CBD and Metropolitan area.
Message
Author
User avatar
Nathan
Super Size Scraper Poster!
Posts: 3122
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:09 pm
Location: Bowden
Has thanked: 191 times
Been thanked: 609 times
Contact:

Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#691 Post by Nathan » Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:15 pm

Ben wrote:Segment on 9 news last night that said Turnbull is likely to fund one of the Tram extensions and also the electrification of the Gawler line.
And I imagine it would have bipartisan support. On Q&A last night, on the topic of public transport, Shorten went through examples of what is needed/should be done for various capital cities, and used a light rail network as an example for Adelaide.

User avatar
PeFe
Legendary Member!
Posts: 896
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:47 am
Has thanked: 38 times
Been thanked: 111 times

Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#692 Post by PeFe » Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:35 pm

Electrification of the Gawler and Outer harbor train line lines should be priority number 1 for any future funding from the federal government.
Grade separation and new train stations on the entire network should be priority number 2.
New tram lines are just "pie-in-the-sky" sort of stuff. I have seen no passenger figures for any Adelaide bus routes that would justify tram lines. Not Prospect Rd, nor the Parade, nor Unley Rd.
Maybe, and just maybe, the Henley Beach/Airport tram would justify the passenger numbers.

Tonsley213
High Rise Poster!
Posts: 230
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:13 pm
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#693 Post by Tonsley213 » Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:42 pm

PeFe wrote:Electrification of the Gawler and Outer harbor train line lines should be priority number 1 for any future funding from the federal government.
Grade separation and new train stations on the entire network should be priority number 2.
New tram lines are just "pie-in-the-sky" sort of stuff. I have seen no passenger figures for any Adelaide bus routes that would justify tram lines. Not Prospect Rd, nor the Parade, nor Unley Rd.
Maybe, and just maybe, the Henley Beach/Airport tram would justify the passenger numbers.
Have you got any justification as to why electrification should be priority number 1?

Trams aren't necessarily being used to cater for the numbers carried on bus routes. They appear to be being used as stimulus for urban growth and to promote the increase in use of public transport in these corridors. Busses are well established as being the least preferred method of transport in Australian cities, especially in cities (like Adelaide) where bus route are used as long trunk routes rather than feeders.

User avatar
PeFe
Legendary Member!
Posts: 896
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:47 am
Has thanked: 38 times
Been thanked: 111 times

Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#694 Post by PeFe » Tue Sep 22, 2015 4:48 pm

Have you got any justification as to why electrification should be priority number 1?
My justification is living in the real world......and getting the "biggest bang" out of your transport money.
Yes trams would probably increase anywhere development potential anywhere they were built...inner suburbs, outer suburbs, Murray Bridge.
Adelaide is such a low rise, sprawling car centric city (which I dont see changing radically in the next 50 years) that public monies should be spent on practical transport planning and the train network is in such a dire state that it should be the beneficiary of any new investment.

User avatar
monotonehell
VIP Member
VIP Member
Posts: 5466
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:10 am
Location: Adelaide, East End.
Has thanked: 192 times
Been thanked: 288 times
Contact:

Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#695 Post by monotonehell » Tue Sep 22, 2015 5:24 pm

PeFe wrote:
Have you got any justification as to why electrification should be priority number 1?
My justification is living in the real world......and getting the "biggest bang" out of your transport money.
Yes trams would probably increase anywhere development potential anywhere they were built...inner suburbs, outer suburbs, Murray Bridge.
Adelaide is such a low rise, sprawling car centric city (which I dont see changing radically in the next 50 years) that public monies should be spent on practical transport planning and the train network is in such a dire state that it should be the beneficiary of any new investment.
I can think of two reasons right now:
  • Backbone long haul stuff should be implemented first, then feeder services (bus and light rail) can be sorted out second.
  • We've got a job half done. Complete it before what's in place rusts due to lack of use/maintenance.
Exit on the right in the direction of travel.

User avatar
Wayno
VIP Member
VIP Member
Posts: 5138
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:18 pm
Location: Torrens Park
Has thanked: 86 times
Been thanked: 130 times

Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#696 Post by Wayno » Tue Sep 22, 2015 5:43 pm

I'll argue the inverse. That city tram and inner-metro loops will foster much more economic interest and activity for SA than electrifying any Adelaide suburban train line, both short-term (while building the loops) and longer-term (as the loops become more and more patroned*)

* is 'patroned' a word? i resisted having auto-correct select 'patronised' for me...
Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.

Goodsy
Legendary Member!
Posts: 928
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:39 am
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 152 times

Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#697 Post by Goodsy » Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:06 pm

Wayno wrote:I'll argue the inverse. That city tram and inner-metro loops will foster much more economic interest and activity for SA than electrifying any Adelaide suburban train line, both short-term (while building the loops) and longer-term (as the loops become more and more patroned*)

* is 'patroned' a word? i resisted having auto-correct select 'patronised' for me...
I agree, trams are more important for the near future. It's not like they're building new train lines or doing anything to funnel more people onto them, all they're doing is a rolling stock upgrade.


Now maybe if Mawson Lakes and Gawler stations were serviced by their own tram lines.... :wink:

Tonsley213
High Rise Poster!
Posts: 230
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:13 pm
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#698 Post by Tonsley213 » Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:16 pm

PeFe wrote:
Have you got any justification as to why electrification should be priority number 1?
My justification is living in the real world......and getting the "biggest bang" out of your transport money.
Yes trams would probably increase anywhere development potential anywhere they were built...inner suburbs, outer suburbs, Murray Bridge.
Adelaide is such a low rise, sprawling car centric city (which I dont see changing radically in the next 50 years) that public monies should be spent on practical transport planning and the train network is in such a dire state that it should be the beneficiary of any new investment.
You get far less 'bang for your buck' by electrifying a line that already exists. Capacity increases have already been achieved with Seaford being electrified.

rubberman
Legendary Member!
Posts: 1298
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:32 pm
Location: ADL ex DRW, ASP, MGB
Has thanked: 141 times
Been thanked: 229 times

Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#699 Post by rubberman » Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:42 pm

I have been a tram fan for most of my life, with my earliest memories being travel on drop-centres to town from North Adelaide. :banana:

However, I can't see the numbers stacking up to justify the expenditure needed. Furthermore, the trams are run so woefully slowly, it would be unlikely to improve passenger experience. The present Bay line is no faster than the steam train to Glenelg a century ago. And that was 1880s technology too! :oops:

As for going down the Parade or Prospect Road nowadays. I think that's just dreaming, the way we run trams in Australia. Just sit down for a coffee on the Parade any Saturday morning, and try to imagine a tram trying to make its way to the City. :shock:

What might be worth a look though is serving the apartment blocks at the Patawolonga by either going down Colley Tce to Anzac Hwy, or by abandoning Jetty Road, hanging a right turn to Brighton Road, then left to Anzac Hwy. Maybe make Jetty Road a mall. :2cents:

crawf
Donating Member
Donating Member
Posts: 5416
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 7:49 pm
Location: Adelaide
Has thanked: 179 times
Been thanked: 320 times

Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#700 Post by crawf » Tue Sep 22, 2015 8:41 pm

Tonsley213 wrote:
PeFe wrote:Electrification of the Gawler and Outer harbor train line lines should be priority number 1 for any future funding from the federal government.
Grade separation and new train stations on the entire network should be priority number 2.
New tram lines are just "pie-in-the-sky" sort of stuff. I have seen no passenger figures for any Adelaide bus routes that would justify tram lines. Not Prospect Rd, nor the Parade, nor Unley Rd.
Maybe, and just maybe, the Henley Beach/Airport tram would justify the passenger numbers.
Have you got any justification as to why electrification should be priority number 1?
What is your justification?. How can you justify this not being a priority, when every other Australian city has over the last 3 decades benefited from cleaner, smoother, quieter and faster electric trains. While in good ol SA, some Adelaide residents are still being crammed into packed 1-3 diesel railcars that many times breach OHS due to overcrowding. For the lucky folk down south, their new electric trains are being towed by two-car diesel railcars back to Dry Creek daily.

Once electrification and modernisation is complete, the Government can then look at much larger scale projects like building an underground city loop, new train lines, expansion of light rail and maybe even an underground bus station. Either way enough is enough, it's high time SA put some serious resources and logic towards transforming what is arguably Australia's worst railway network to the same standard as other major cities or even more superior.
You get far less 'bang for your buck' by electrifying a line that already exists. Capacity increases have already been achieved with Seaford being electrified.
Is it ironic that your user name is 'Tonsley213' and you're against electrification of other lines...

User avatar
PeFe
Legendary Member!
Posts: 896
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:47 am
Has thanked: 38 times
Been thanked: 111 times

Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#701 Post by PeFe » Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:24 am

GoodSmackUp"
It's not like they're building new train lines or doing anything to funnel more people onto them, all they're doing is a rolling stock upgrade.
Not true, apart from upgrading the rolling stock, the plan is to funnel more people from buses onto trains into the city and cut down the number of buses travelling all the way into town.(This wont happen up north until the Gawler line has been electrified with sufficient new trains)
Several bus routes down south have been changed also to funnel more people onto trains.
The train lines and the train stations really are a development opportunity just waiting for the right plan and money.
You encounter much less NIMBY opposition when rebuilding run-down former industrial areas and the space around the train network is huge and under developed.
Tram lines up Unley Rd, Prospect Rd and the Parade really cant be justified without a huge population increase along the catchment areas (ie multi storey apartments).
Remember the Nimby woman who complained about a new apartment proposal on Unley Road.........$600,000 apartments and she called them "slums".....
And I just want to say that I am not anti-tram, far from it, I am extremely pro public transport ( I have not owned a car since 1993, I use public transport) I just want available money used to achieve realistic goals.
Now maybe if Mawson Lakes and Gawler stations were serviced by their own tram lines.... :wink:
Gawler cant even provide enough patronage to justify the bus services they have........now back to the real world.

MessiahAndrw
High Rise Poster!
Posts: 135
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:05 pm
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#702 Post by MessiahAndrw » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:41 am

crawf wrote:What is your justification?. How can you justify this not being a priority, when every other Australian city has over the last 3 decades benefited from cleaner, smoother, quieter and faster electric trains. While in good ol SA, some Adelaide residents are still being crammed into packed 1-3 diesel railcars that many times breach OHS due to overcrowding. For the lucky folk down south, their new electric trains are being towed by two-car diesel railcars back to Dry Creek daily.
Yes, the replacement trains will be newer. But what does the age of the train or the how it's powered have to do with it's capacity?

What I think other people might be implying is that, sure, the trains will be newer, but it's still taking us the same places we already go at the same speed.
My blog on urban design: http://www.andrewalexanderprice.com/blog.php

crawf
Donating Member
Donating Member
Posts: 5416
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 7:49 pm
Location: Adelaide
Has thanked: 179 times
Been thanked: 320 times

Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#703 Post by crawf » Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:52 pm

MessiahAndrw wrote:
crawf wrote:What is your justification?. How can you justify this not being a priority, when every other Australian city has over the last 3 decades benefited from cleaner, smoother, quieter and faster electric trains. While in good ol SA, some Adelaide residents are still being crammed into packed 1-3 diesel railcars that many times breach OHS due to overcrowding. For the lucky folk down south, their new electric trains are being towed by two-car diesel railcars back to Dry Creek daily.
Yes, the replacement trains will be newer. But what does the age of the train or the how it's powered have to do with it's capacity?
It doesn't, that was a snapshot of how extremely poor our train network is compared to interstate.

There are however benefits of going electric..
- Electric trains are permanently coupled with three carriages, compared to diesel trains which usually range from one to three carriages (four max)
- There is complete access throughout the electric train, which can better spread congestion in peak instead of being crammed into one diesel carriage
- Two electric trains can be joined together, allowing six carriages.
What I think other people might be implying is that, sure, the trains will be newer, but it's still taking us the same places we already go at the same speed.
Electric trains are faster than diesel.

Electric trains aren't just newer, they are far more superior compared to diesel. You only need to look at the increase of passenger numbers since the Noarlunga/Seaford upgrade, at why electrification of the whole network needs to be high priority. Having a modern electric railway system will not only boast economic activity, it will also boost Adelaide's livability status and reputation.

Electrification is just one part of the puzzle of transforming our railway network. There needs to be further station upgrades, better frequency and more bus feeder services.

Torrens_5022
High Rise Poster!
Posts: 228
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:34 am
Been thanked: 10 times

Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#704 Post by Torrens_5022 » Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:33 pm

Electric trains are more comfortable, because there much quieter. provide a smoother faster ride and are safer, the passenger has access to all carriages and if security personal are present they have access to them easily. Trams will encourage a growth in density along the corridors it services, both trams and electric trains are needed in Adelaide. A question is do you convert the Outer Harbor line to heavy or light rail?

User avatar
Llessur2002
Legendary Member!
Posts: 1463
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:59 pm
Location: West Croydon
Has thanked: 434 times
Been thanked: 667 times

Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#705 Post by Llessur2002 » Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:57 pm

Torrens_5022 wrote:A question is do you convert the Outer Harbor line to heavy or light rail?
Been thinking about this a lot recently. I live along this corridor and to be honest I'd welcome any upgrade of this line - it will secure it for the future and hopefully force an upgrade of stations along the line and encourage density both along the corridor, in Port and hopefully West Lakes too.

However, having researched a bit further I'd be really concerned about the increase in journey times for the along the line if a conversion to light rail was undertaken. In my opinion it *could* work but would have to coincide with some proper improvements to tram priority at intersections between the Entertainment Centre and the City. I've noticed that the trams do seem to get some preference at the Port Road/Park Terrace intersection - but only if they arrive at the right point in the cycle and/or if there's a tram waiting in each direction. Otherwise they just have to sit it out along with the other traffic which can be excruciatingly painful sometimes. I'd like to see trams get an instant green light through as many intersections as possible - although admittedly I'm not an expert so have no idea about the knock-on effects to vehicle traffic of this.

Plus, how come in Melbourne their aging trams accelerate so quickly that they virtually throw you from your feet when they pull away from a standstill and seem to get right up to 50kph even in a very short run between blocks, when our newer trams pootle around gently and barely seem to get up to 30kph even on a long run?

Otherwise, if the journey time isn't addressed then I'd have to say that electrified heavy rail must be the best option - patronage might even fall if journey times are significantly increased. Get the Feds to stump up for the Torrens Junction improvement, underground the line past Bowden and be done with it.

I have to say that I'm swaying towards the certainty of this option over the potential gamble that is a light rail conversion - as much as I'd love to see a widespread and integrated tram network in Adelaide one day.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests