News & Discussion: Trams

[SBD]

A few comments:

Historically, private tram operators have been spectacularly unsuccesful. The first tramway was private. Went broke. The early Melbourne companies, broke. Bendigo and Ballarat, broke. Brisbane, broke. So, a certain amount of skepticism is warranted.

Next, the price of $500m looks high. Downer is going to need to get that back. So, either we end up paying that. Or they go broke. See above. No alternative. Either we pay a higher price or they go broke. No other alternative.

Batteries. We've been hearing about batteries being "the nexr great thing" since The Julien Electric Patent battery car did demonstrations in Adelaide in the 1880s. The promoters of that and every other tram battery promoter in Australasia have gone broke. (NZ had one in Invercargill). Maybe the next one is "just around the corner" like they have been since the 1880s.

History says the Government is very prudent to exercise caution, and we would be well advised to hear ALL the details before forming any opinion.

Keolis Downer has apparently been running Melbourne's Yarra Trams since 2009. The recently renewed contract supposedly has tighter performance targets, but still below what they had actually been achieving. It also runs the Gold Coast G:Link tram service, and both LinkSA and Southlink buses in Adelaide amongst others around the country. ( http://www.afr.com/business/downers-ser ... 913-gygf2f ) I have no idea whether $500M is high or low to build and operate for 30 years, but Mullighan didn't attempt to claim that the state government could do it cheaper. It definitely sounds like it is worth looking into it rather than rejecting out of hand with spurious arguments.

[muzzamo]

Historically, private tram operators have been spectacularly unsuccesful. The first tramway was private. Went broke. The early Melbourne companies, broke. Bendigo and Ballarat, broke. Brisbane, broke. So, a certain amount of skepticism is warranted.

I think this is mixing up what "private" actually means. In reality, it sits somewhere along a spectrum of "completely privately owned, market driven, 100% private", all the way through to the way our busses are "privatised" where the private companies don't own the assets or control the routes but are paid for performance, or perhaps the way that the hospital is "privatised" under a Build Own Operate Transfer arrangement with clinical activities still under SA Health but non clinical under the private contract.

There are lots of options - i'm not sure they resemble the first tramway that was private and went broke though.

[rubberman]

Historically, private tram operators have been spectacularly unsuccesful. The first tramway was private. Went broke. The early Melbourne companies, broke. Bendigo and Ballarat, broke. Brisbane, broke. So, a certain amount of skepticism is warranted.

I think this is mixing up what "private" actually means. In reality, it sits somewhere along a spectrum of "completely privately owned, market driven, 100% private", all the way through to the way our busses are "privatised" where the private companies don't own the assets or control the routes but are paid for performance, or perhaps the way that the hospital is "privatised" under a Build Own Operate Transfer arrangement with clinical activities still under SA Health but non clinical under the private contract.

There are lots of options - i'm not sure they resemble the first tramway that was private and went broke though.

Well yeah, but with that history, wouldn't you want to make sure before even considering whether it's a good idea? Looking at the cost of the latest tram extension on the Gold Coast, this proposal sounds waaay overpriced.

So, something that on the face of it is waaay overpriced, and with private sector schemes having had little success unless, as in your examples, they are highly stste subsidised or guaranteed (both of which cost the public money - it's not free).

I'm not against it per se, BUT I'd never make a decision on $500m, one way or the other without knowing a heck of a lot more. Let's wait and see some details before deciding whether it's good or not. For example, if we had the same money, but got the Gold Coast prices, we could go to Henley Beach as well as the Airport almost. What would you prefer? A line to the Airport only? Or one to the Airport AND Henley Beach for the same price? I'd rather have both for that money.

[rubberman]

A few comments:

Historically, private tram operators have been spectacularly unsuccesful. The first tramway was private. Went broke. The early Melbourne companies, broke. Bendigo and Ballarat, broke. Brisbane, broke. So, a certain amount of skepticism is warranted.

Next, the price of $500m looks high. Downer is going to need to get that back. So, either we end up paying that. Or they go broke. See above. No alternative. Either we pay a higher price or they go broke. No other alternative.

Batteries. We've been hearing about batteries being "the nexr great thing" since The Julien Electric Patent battery car did demonstrations in Adelaide in the 1880s. The promoters of that and every other tram battery promoter in Australasia have gone broke. (NZ had one in Invercargill). Maybe the next one is "just around the corner" like they have been since the 1880s.

History says the Government is very prudent to exercise caution, and we would be well advised to hear ALL the details before forming any opinion.

Keolis Downer has apparently been running Melbourne's Yarra Trams since 2009. The recently renewed contract supposedly has tighter performance targets, but still below what they had actually been achieving. It also runs the Gold Coast G:Link tram service, and both LinkSA and Southlink buses in Adelaide amongst others around the country. ( http://www.afr.com/business/downers-ser ... 913-gygf2f ) I have no idea whether $500M is high or low to build and operate for 30 years, but Mullighan didn't attempt to claim that the state government could do it cheaper. It definitely sounds like it is worth looking into it rather than rejecting out of hand with spurious arguments.

Um, I said "...we would be well advised to hear ALL the details before forming any opinion..." Does "...any opinion..." sound like I am rejecting anything?

Next, "spurious arguments". Looking at previous experience is quite the rage amongst people assessing projects. Getting enthused about something just because there's a half page article in the Advertiser is pretty spurious too. But we went through this before in about 1900. A private scheme, called the Westinghouse Scheme was proposed for Adelaide by private promoters. The Labor Government of the time rejected it, and formed the MTT. The rest is history. But we've been there, done that. Nothing new here. Let's wait for the details before we get excited eh?

[SBD]

A few comments:

Historically, private tram operators have been spectacularly unsuccesful. The first tramway was private. Went broke. The early Melbourne companies, broke. Bendigo and Ballarat, broke. Brisbane, broke. So, a certain amount of skepticism is warranted.

Next, the price of $500m looks high. Downer is going to need to get that back. So, either we end up paying that. Or they go broke. See above. No alternative. Either we pay a higher price or they go broke. No other alternative.

Batteries. We've been hearing about batteries being "the nexr great thing" since The Julien Electric Patent battery car did demonstrations in Adelaide in the 1880s. The promoters of that and every other tram battery promoter in Australasia have gone broke. (NZ had one in Invercargill). Maybe the next one is "just around the corner" like they have been since the 1880s.

History says the Government is very prudent to exercise caution, and we would be well advised to hear ALL the details before forming any opinion.

Keolis Downer has apparently been running Melbourne's Yarra Trams since 2009. The recently renewed contract supposedly has tighter performance targets, but still below what they had actually been achieving. It also runs the Gold Coast G:Link tram service, and both LinkSA and Southlink buses in Adelaide amongst others around the country. ( http://www.afr.com/business/downers-ser ... 913-gygf2f ) I have no idea whether $500M is high or low to build and operate for 30 years, but Mullighan didn't attempt to claim that the state government could do it cheaper. It definitely sounds like it is worth looking into it rather than rejecting out of hand with spurious arguments.

Um, I said "...we would be well advised to hear ALL the details before forming any opinion..." Does "...any opinion..." sound like I am rejecting anything?

Next, "spurious arguments". Looking at previous experience is quite the rage amongst people assessing projects. Getting enthused about something just because there's a half page article in the Advertiser is pretty spurious too. But we went through this before in about 1900. A private scheme, called the Westinghouse Scheme was proposed for Adelaide by private promoters. The Labor Government of the time rejected it, and formed the MTT. The rest is history. But we've been there, done that. Nothing new here. Let's wait for the details before we get excited eh?

@Rubberman: My criticisms about rejecting things without knowing details weren't directed at you - they were directed against the quotes of Stephen Mullighan in the article.

[rubberman]

Keolis Downer has apparently been running Melbourne's Yarra Trams since 2009. The recently renewed contract supposedly has tighter performance targets, but still below what they had actually been achieving. It also runs the Gold Coast G:Link tram service, and both LinkSA and Southlink buses in Adelaide amongst others around the country. ( http://www.afr.com/business/downers-ser ... 913-gygf2f ) I have no idea whether $500M is high or low to build and operate for 30 years, but Mullighan didn't attempt to claim that the state government could do it cheaper. It definitely sounds like it is worth looking into it rather than rejecting out of hand with spurious arguments.

Um, I said "...we would be well advised to hear ALL the details before forming any opinion..." Does "...any opinion..." sound like I am rejecting anything?

Next, "spurious arguments". Looking at previous experience is quite the rage amongst people assessing projects. Getting enthused about something just because there's a half page article in the Advertiser is pretty spurious too. But we went through this before in about 1900. A private scheme, called the Westinghouse Scheme was proposed for Adelaide by private promoters. The Labor Government of the time rejected it, and formed the MTT. The rest is history. But we've been there, done that. Nothing new here. Let's wait for the details before we get excited eh?

@Rubberman: My criticisms about rejecting things without knowing details weren't directed at you - they were directed against the quotes of Stephen Mullighan in the article.

Ah, apologies.

[Adamo]

Any progress on the tram extension?

[Norman]

Any progress on the tram extension?

I posted a few photos yesterday. The next step will be the North Terrace and King William Street intersection.

[PD2/20]

Any progress on the tram extension?

See https://www.infrastructure.sa.gov.au/__ ... letter.pdf for recent update from DPTI. Also the 3 additional Citadis trams were transported from Outer Harbor to Glengowrie Depot during last week for commissioning.

[[Shuz]]

Premier Jay Weatherill cool on $500 million plan for Adelaide Airport light-rail link
Paul Starick, Adam Langenberg, The Advertiser
December 17, 2017 8:29pm

A MAJOR Australian company’s bid to invest up to $500 million in a light-rail city-airport link is “great news” for SA — but Premier Weatherill says Labor does not support a privatised transport system.

Responding to the Sunday Mail’s revelation that Sydney-based Downer Group wants to build, fund and operate a 6km route along West Tce, Henley Beach and Airport roads, Mr Weatherill said the State Government wanted to retain control of public transport.

The State Government in 2015 proposed a tram-led revival for Adelaide through an unfunded AdeLINK project, with six routes including a WestLINK line along Henley Beach Rd with a spur to the airport.

The $80 million Festival Plaza and East End tram extensions — the latter being built under a government contract by the Downer Group along North Tce to the Old Royal Adelaide Hospital — have been described by Transport Minister Stephen Mullighan as the first stages of lines to Norwood and North Adelaide, along with a City Loop.

“It’s great news that a private sector investor is talking about ideas to invest in SA but our ambition is to expand the tram network,” Mr Weatherill said.

“We’ve already published some draft ideas about AdeLINK, about the way in which we’ll recreate, really, the 1950s tram network in SA, and you’re seeing that the work we’ve already done, the extension of the tram network, down to the old RAH.

“Our preference, of course, is that these be publicly owned and run. We don’t support the privatised system, but, nevertheless, we’ll look at any unsolicited offers that come our way and we’ll give them the proper assessment.

Artist impression of the proposal for a new light rail link from Adelaide to the airport.
“But we wouldn’t necessarily want to be imposing uplift taxes (on increased property values along the route) that might be applied by a scheme of this sort if the private sector was going to be running it themselves.”

Opposition transport spokesman David Pisoni said he understood Downer had been talking to the government for some time and had been encouraged to continue working on the airport rail link project and prepare the unsolicited bid.

Downer is proposing to operate the airport light rail link as part of the Adelaide Metro network, using the same tickets and prices, and make a financial return through a 30-year operating contract.

Downer, in a joint venture with French firm Keolis, since 1995 has been operating Adelaide buses under the SouthLink banner, in the outer south, Hills and outer north.

Adelaide Airport has declared support for “an affordable light-rail service” between the airport and CBD.

Skycity Adelaide Casino general manager Luke Walker said the light rail proposal was an exciting idea that would provide a much-needed piece of transport infrastructure, catering for increased visitor demand because of the Riverbank development and the $330 million Casino expansion opening in 2020.

“A fast, clean, and frequent link from the airport to the city centre would be great news for both visitors and local businesses,” he said.

[rubberman]

Premier Jay Weatherill cool on $500 million plan for Adelaide Airport light-rail link
Paul Starick, Adam Langenberg, The Advertiser
December 17, 2017 8:29pm

A MAJOR Australian company’s bid to invest up to $500 million in a light-rail city-airport link is “great news” for SA — but Premier Weatherill says Labor does not support a privatised transport system.

Responding to the Sunday Mail’s revelation that Sydney-based Downer Group wants to build, fund and operate a 6km route along West Tce, Henley Beach and Airport roads, Mr Weatherill said the State Government wanted to retain control of public transport.

The State Government in 2015 proposed a tram-led revival for Adelaide through an unfunded AdeLINK project, with six routes including a WestLINK line along Henley Beach Rd with a spur to the airport.

The $80 million Festival Plaza and East End tram extensions — the latter being built under a government contract by the Downer Group along North Tce to the Old Royal Adelaide Hospital — have been described by Transport Minister Stephen Mullighan as the first stages of lines to Norwood and North Adelaide, along with a City Loop.

“It’s great news that a private sector investor is talking about ideas to invest in SA but our ambition is to expand the tram network,” Mr Weatherill said.

“We’ve already published some draft ideas about AdeLINK, about the way in which we’ll recreate, really, the 1950s tram network in SA, and you’re seeing that the work we’ve already done, the extension of the tram network, down to the old RAH.

“Our preference, of course, is that these be publicly owned and run. We don’t support the privatised system, but, nevertheless, we’ll look at any unsolicited offers that come our way and we’ll give them the proper assessment.

Artist impression of the proposal for a new light rail link from Adelaide to the airport.
“But we wouldn’t necessarily want to be imposing uplift taxes (on increased property values along the route) that might be applied by a scheme of this sort if the private sector was going to be running it themselves.”

Opposition transport spokesman David Pisoni said he understood Downer had been talking to the government for some time and had been encouraged to continue working on the airport rail link project and prepare the unsolicited bid.

Downer is proposing to operate the airport light rail link as part of the Adelaide Metro network, using the same tickets and prices, and make a financial return through a 30-year operating contract.

Downer, in a joint venture with French firm Keolis, since 1995 has been operating Adelaide buses under the SouthLink banner, in the outer south, Hills and outer north.

Adelaide Airport has declared support for “an affordable light-rail service” between the airport and CBD.

Skycity Adelaide Casino general manager Luke Walker said the light rail proposal was an exciting idea that would provide a much-needed piece of transport infrastructure, catering for increased visitor demand because of the Riverbank development and the $330 million Casino expansion opening in 2020.

“A fast, clean, and frequent link from the airport to the city centre would be great news for both visitors and local businesses,” he said.

The other thing I just realised, apart from the high cost, was that they were proposing only two or three stops along Henley Beach Road. That means that the road gets narrowed effectively by one lane each way, but the buses will still have to stop along that stretch from the airport to town. Great for businesses next to those few stops. Not so much for the others.

So, one less lane, same number of buses. How's that going to work?

Edit: Ok, trying to be constructive here. One way this could work is if this extension could be done by Downer, but with the track then being able to be used by the State Government for trams going to Henley Beach FOR NO EXTRA COST for running on the new track. The Downer trams, privately owned could run to the airport with their limited stops, and the Government trams could share the track going to Henley beach, and stop at all stops. That removes the buses from the equation. Alternatively, the buses run on the tram lane as is done safely elsewhere in the world.

Making sure they don't interfere with each other would be a time tabling issue, but isn't impossible. That might make the Henley line more economical for the State Government. Just need to ensure there's no double dipping.

[[Shuz]]

The only sort of outcome I can see Labor agreeing to, is one where the Government will build the track, stops and wires and run a normal tram service under the AdelaideMetro banner, but allowing Downer to run a private service (like Melbourne's Skybus) which would have limited stops and have its own depot which Downer could charge their own fares, manage their own staff and vehicles and pay lease per annum to the Government at like $1 a year. I'm thinking along the same lines as how freight rail works...

[SBD]

Part of the cost presumably includes acquisition and maintenance of the rolling stock, including a new facility to store and maintain them.

It has been noted that the current Glengwrie facility is reaching capacity and the next government-funded extension is likely to need a new tram barn anyway. Is the current maintenance facility outsourced to private industry, or are the trams maintained by public servants?

It could make sense to establish a new tram maintenance facility owned and operated by Downer, but large enough to also work on government trams used on the other lines (possibly including Henley Beach).

[rubberman]

Part of the cost presumably includes acquisition and maintenance of the rolling stock, including a new facility to store and maintain them.

It has been noted that the current Glengwrie facility is reaching capacity and the next government-funded extension is likely to need a new tram barn anyway. Is the current maintenance facility outsourced to private industry, or are the trams maintained by public servants?

It could make sense to establish a new tram maintenance facility owned and operated by Downer, but large enough to also work on government trams used on the other lines (possibly including Henley Beach).

Those are valid points. However, that would then raise questions of whether another small maintenance and stabling facility would be economic. Presumably, if government were to build a new facility, it would be designed to cope with the whole expanded system (or able to be expanded in stages). That would be cheaper than a plethora of small facilities. So, how would a combined depot work? That then raises the question of tram types. Lots of different types of tram aren't economic. Yet if Downer decides on one type, and the government possibly three types, Flexity, Citadis and something else maybe, we could end up with four types of tram in a relatively small system. Not good. Then there's the question of choice of tram. A citadis, or the various clones of that type, are very hard on track, but extremely cheap if tenders go out early enough. So, does Downer buy el cheapo trams and leave the government essentially worn out track in 30 years? Or should they have to purchase better trams such as Pesas, Stadlers, Škodas with rotating bogies, completely low floor and with 100% disabled access etc etc, and which also would give a 50 year life?

None of this is covered, but apparently the Advertiser thinks it's a good idea. It's worth a look, but certainly no open and shut case.

[SBD]

Part of the cost presumably includes acquisition and maintenance of the rolling stock, including a new facility to store and maintain them.

It has been noted that the current Glengwrie facility is reaching capacity and the next government-funded extension is likely to need a new tram barn anyway. Is the current maintenance facility outsourced to private industry, or are the trams maintained by public servants?

It could make sense to establish a new tram maintenance facility owned and operated by Downer, but large enough to also work on government trams used on the other lines (possibly including Henley Beach).

Those are valid points. However, that would then raise questions of whether another small maintenance and stabling facility would be economic. Presumably, if government were to build a new facility, it would be designed to cope with the whole expanded system (or able to be expanded in stages). That would be cheaper than a plethora of small facilities. So, how would a combined depot work? That then raises the question of tram types. Lots of different types of tram aren't economic. Yet if Downer decides on one type, and the government possibly three types, Flexity, Citadis and something else maybe, we could end up with four types of tram in a relatively small system. Not good. Then there's the question of choice of tram. A citadis, or the various clones of that type, are very hard on track, but extremely cheap if tenders go out early enough. So, does Downer buy el cheapo trams and leave the government essentially worn out track in 30 years? Or should they have to purchase better trams such as Pesas, Stadlers, Škodas with rotating bogies, completely low floor and with 100% disabled access etc etc, and which also would give a 50 year life?

None of this is covered, but apparently the Advertiser thinks it's a good idea. It's worth a look, but certainly no open and shut case.

You make a number of good points that are not addressed in the information provided by The Advertiser and Sunday Mail.

Several of them are the kinds of things that should get "sensible" answers if the entire network were run by one enterprise (private or government). DPTI currently own and maintain the tracks and bought the Citadis trams, hence my use of "should" rather than "will", unless there is somethign else they know that we don't. The Keolis half of the joint venture has a lot of experience running trams world-wide. the joint venture has experience of Yarra Trams and G:Link, and will soon have the Newcastle system. Downer has experience building and maintaining track, locomotives and trams.

Making the unsolicited bid first is a clue that Keolis-Downer might have thought of the integration issues and offered to do things in the way that would best suit them operating it, rather than just respond to calls for tender to do things that make political sense rather than engineering sense.

Government can say "no thank you", but it will look pretty silly if a year or two later, it calls for tenders to build something similar, and the winning bid is from Downer at a higher cost! It can look good if the trams needed for Prospect and Norwood can be piggy-backed on to the Downer purchase, and maintained at an expanded Keolis-Downer depot.