News & Discussion: Trams

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#2656 Post by Ben » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:11 am

Not sure if its been reported before but in the City Messenger Labor have said if they win they will start work on the Parade line by the end of the year.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#2657 Post by Nathan » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:34 am

SA Liberals have announced they're going to add the right turn to the KWS/North Tce intersection. Apparently shouty people in the paper are good for informing policy.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#2658 Post by Llessur2002 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:41 am

Here's the article. It's literally madness - the money that would be spend in ripping up and re-grading the entire intersection to introduce right hand turns that would cripple the intersection would surely be much better used to extend the network a little further e.g. if anything, why not just cross the KWS street bridge and put a stop outside the Oval? It would probably cost around the same...
SA Election 2018: Liberal leader Steven Marshall promises to make North Terrace tram services turn right

TRAMS will turn right onto North Terrace from King William Rd — if the State Liberals win Government.

The State Government last year announced it would spend $80 million on an upgrade to deliver four new stops, one at Festival Plaza behind Parliament House and three along North Tce to service the museum and library precinct as well as universities and the East End.

However, the notorious intersection drew criticism for not permitting a right hand turn that would seamlessly connect services on the Glenelg line with the East End.

Works to upgrade the intersection were completed earlier this year.

On Thursday, the State Liberals pledged they will “Labor‘s tram joke and let trams turn right”.

Previous expert analysis commissioned by the Greens revealed a right turn for trams on North Tce would cost an estimated $37 million.

The documents were produced by the new Parliamentary Budget Advisory Service in February in response to an application by Greens MP Mark Parnell.

It declined a request to model a cost of including a right hand turn as part of the original build.

However, the PBAS also warns that its estimate for a new build is of “low reliability” and “detailed costing will need to be undertaken to deliver a better cost estimate”.

“To add a right turn, the full intersection will be reconstructed to adjust the plane of the entire intersection to an acceptable gradient,” PBAS chief executive John Hill reports.

“There are significant risks with the geometry of the intersection that impact whether trams could safely navigate through right hand turn movements.”

Trams have formed a large part of Premier Jay Weatherill’s broader infrastructure plan as Labor campaigns to be returned to power on March 17.

Labor has promised more than $500 million to tram projects so far this campaign, including extensions to North Adelaide and Norwood.
From: http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/sa-e ... 8594078a4f
Last edited by Llessur2002 on Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#2659 Post by Kasey771 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:53 am

Steven Marshall is a friggin idiot. I cannot possibly vote Liberal this election if that's an example of the way he'd move regarding shouty people whining on the back of an ignorant local newspaper whingefest campaign. :wallbash: :wallbash:
Big infrastructure investments are usually under-valued and & over-criticized while in the planning stage. It's much easier to envision the here and now costs and inconveniences, and far more difficult to imagine fully the eventual benefits.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#2660 Post by Llessur2002 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:12 am

I am just hoping that this will not be the only tram-related announcement by the Libs this election. Whilst there is no way in hell they’ll extend to Norwood because of those ‘absolutely terrific’ street trees, I can just about see the O’Connell Street extension going ahead. I think the slight glimmer of hope here is that Haese seems to be quite pro-tram in the City and has been advocating for the North Adelaide extension to boost development potential of the Le Cornu site. If the Libs do offer anything in this area, and I am doubtful, I think this will be it. I suspect Haese would also be supportive of the City Loop but I don’t see the Libs wanting to get involved in anything of that scale.

The only other remote possibility would be an airport line - something out into the shitty West as far as Marshall's concerned. Most likely taking the inferior route down SDB Drive or Richmond Road, possibly with private money. A tram extension of any sorts would at least enable the Libs to compete with Labor in this fairly popular policy area and any of the three lines listed above would likely boost their chances in the seat of Adelaide too.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#2661 Post by SBD » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:29 am

Llessur2002 wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:12 am
I am just hoping that this will not be the only tram-related announcement by the Libs this election. Whilst there is no way in hell they’ll extend to Norwood because of those ‘absolutely terrific’ street trees, I can just about see the O’Connell Street extension going ahead. I think the slight glimmer of hope here is that Haese seems to be quite pro-tram in the City and has been advocating for the North Adelaide extension to boost development potential of the Le Cornu site. If the Libs do offer anything in this area, and I am doubtful, I think this will be it. I suspect Haese would also be supportive of the City Loop but I don’t see the Libs wanting to get involved in anything of that scale.

The only other remote possibility would be an airport line - something out into the shitty West as far as Marshall's concerned. Most likely taking the inferior route down SDB Drive or Richmond Road, possibly with private money. A tram extension of any sorts would at least enable the Libs to compete with Labor in this fairly popular policy area and any of the three lines listed above would likely boost their chances in the seat of Adelaide too.
Downer put forward a proposal in December to build and operate a tram to the airport, partly to offset any "valley of death" in tramline construction. Things have been quiet on that front ever since. I think we could do a lot worse than hooking up with the operators of the Melbourne tram network, some of Adelaide's buses, and people with experience in maintaining trams with an established relationship with the people who build trams in Australia.

Any major announcements now don't influence any of the people who have already voted pre-poll or postal.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#2662 Post by Nort » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:55 am

Llessur2002 wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:41 am
Here's the article. It's literally madness - the money that would be spend in ripping up and re-grading the entire intersection to introduce right hand turns that would cripple the intersection would surely be much better used to extend the network a little further e.g. if anything, why not just cross the KWS street bridge and put a stop outside the Oval? It would probably cost around the same...
SA Election 2018: Liberal leader Steven Marshall promises to make North Terrace tram services turn right

TRAMS will turn right onto North Terrace from King William Rd — if the State Liberals win Government.

The State Government last year announced it would spend $80 million on an upgrade to deliver four new stops, one at Festival Plaza behind Parliament House and three along North Tce to service the museum and library precinct as well as universities and the East End.

However, the notorious intersection drew criticism for not permitting a right hand turn that would seamlessly connect services on the Glenelg line with the East End.

Works to upgrade the intersection were completed earlier this year.

On Thursday, the State Liberals pledged they will “Labor‘s tram joke and let trams turn right”.
All going to what I predicted.

If the Liberals get in the right-turn issue will be "investigated" with the conclusion that the whole thing is a mess and needs to be rethought, with tram extensions put on hold indefinitely.

Their plan doesn't make any sense anyway. What are they going to do, stop Glenelg trams going to the Entertainment Centre and send them to the East End instead? Have the Glenelg trams alternate between going to the East End and Entertainment Centre with all the confusion and delays to commuters that will bring?

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#2663 Post by Brucetiki » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:56 am

Llessur2002 wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:41 am
Here's the article. It's literally madness - the money that would be spend in ripping up and re-grading the entire intersection to introduce right hand turns that would cripple the intersection would surely be much better used to extend the network a little further e.g. if anything, why not just cross the KWS street bridge and put a stop outside the Oval? It would probably cost around the same...
SA Election 2018: Liberal leader Steven Marshall promises to make North Terrace tram services turn right

TRAMS will turn right onto North Terrace from King William Rd — if the State Liberals win Government.

The State Government last year announced it would spend $80 million on an upgrade to deliver four new stops, one at Festival Plaza behind Parliament House and three along North Tce to service the museum and library precinct as well as universities and the East End.

However, the notorious intersection drew criticism for not permitting a right hand turn that would seamlessly connect services on the Glenelg line with the East End.

Works to upgrade the intersection were completed earlier this year.

On Thursday, the State Liberals pledged they will “Labor‘s tram joke and let trams turn right”.

Previous expert analysis commissioned by the Greens revealed a right turn for trams on North Tce would cost an estimated $37 million.

The documents were produced by the new Parliamentary Budget Advisory Service in February in response to an application by Greens MP Mark Parnell.

It declined a request to model a cost of including a right hand turn as part of the original build.

However, the PBAS also warns that its estimate for a new build is of “low reliability” and “detailed costing will need to be undertaken to deliver a better cost estimate”.

“To add a right turn, the full intersection will be reconstructed to adjust the plane of the entire intersection to an acceptable gradient,” PBAS chief executive John Hill reports.

“There are significant risks with the geometry of the intersection that impact whether trams could safely navigate through right hand turn movements.”

Trams have formed a large part of Premier Jay Weatherill’s broader infrastructure plan as Labor campaigns to be returned to power on March 17.

Labor has promised more than $500 million to tram projects so far this campaign, including extensions to North Adelaide and Norwood.
From: http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/sa-e ... 8594078a4f
But aren't they preaching that the state is broke and we can't afford anything as well.

This is just lunacy

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#2664 Post by Norman » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:26 pm

I cannot believe that they are seriously considering ripping up the whole thing and starting again. It would take another $40m and another 3-4 week shutdown of our busiest CBD intersection to fix this, just to make a political point.

On the upside, apparently there will be more transport announcements coming. I hope they will at least include a few public transport policies and more than just "improvements to customer service".
Last edited by Norman on Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#2665 Post by mshagg » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:38 pm

Nort wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:55 am
All going to what I predicted.

If the Liberals get in the right-turn issue will be "investigated" with the conclusion that the whole thing is a mess and needs to be rethought, with tram extensions put on hold indefinitely.

Their plan doesn't make any sense anyway. What are they going to do, stop Glenelg trams going to the Entertainment Centre and send them to the East End instead? Have the Glenelg trams alternate between going to the East End and Entertainment Centre with all the confusion and delays to commuters that will bring?
It's the ACC model of walking back decisions. "We need to get this right, consult with stakeholders etc etc"

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#2666 Post by Kasey771 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:52 pm

mshagg wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:38 pm
Nort wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:55 am
All going to what I predicted.

If the Liberals get in the right-turn issue will be "investigated" with the conclusion that the whole thing is a mess and needs to be rethought, with tram extensions put on hold indefinitely.

Their plan doesn't make any sense anyway. What are they going to do, stop Glenelg trams going to the Entertainment Centre and send them to the East End instead? Have the Glenelg trams alternate between going to the East End and Entertainment Centre with all the confusion and delays to commuters that will bring?
It's the ACC model of walking back decisions. "We need to get this right, consult with stakeholders etc etc"
If you commission enough reports you'll get one that agrees with what you wanted to do in the first place. Libs will continue to commission reports until they get one that shows that trams are a waste of time(my gut feel for the Lib position on almost all PT based on their chronic lack of a coherent public transport policy and recent historic record of underinvestment inthe area) and so they'll aim towards ripping it all up :(
Big infrastructure investments are usually under-valued and & over-criticized while in the planning stage. It's much easier to envision the here and now costs and inconveniences, and far more difficult to imagine fully the eventual benefits.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#2667 Post by Llessur2002 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:24 pm

Perhaps some concerned members of the forum could share our views on Marshall's and the Libs' facebook pages? They have put a number of announcements about this up this morning so it would be good if a fair share of the comments pointed out the lunacy behind this decision.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#2668 Post by Alyx » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:03 pm

Llessur2002 wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:24 pm
Perhaps some concerned members of the forum could share our views on Marshall's and the Libs' facebook pages? They have put a number of announcements about this up this morning so it would be good if a fair share of the comments pointed out the lunacy behind this decision.
You would be wasting your time, unfortunately. Comments not laden with praise for Steven Marshall, the Liberal Party, or their policy announcements have been swiftly removed throughout the day.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#2669 Post by Llessur2002 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:41 pm

Ok, so an interesting snippet from: https://indaily.com.au/news/politics/20 ... tram-turn/
Asked whether he would provide any further detail on his plans for the tram network, Marshall told reporters this morning they would have to wait for a few days.

But: “It’s a good plan.”

“I know you’re all excited about our public transport plan,” he added.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#2670 Post by Nathan » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:50 pm

Alyx wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:03 pm
Llessur2002 wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:24 pm
Perhaps some concerned members of the forum could share our views on Marshall's and the Libs' facebook pages? They have put a number of announcements about this up this morning so it would be good if a fair share of the comments pointed out the lunacy behind this decision.
You would be wasting your time, unfortunately. Comments not laden with praise for Steven Marshall, the Liberal Party, or their policy announcements have been swiftly removed throughout the day.
Even beyond that. I left a comment on the Nick Mitzevich story stating how much of a loss it is (like others) but also hoped that he could use his remaining time with AGSA to cement the Adelaide Contemporary. *vvvvpppp* deleted. I have a feeling I'm on some sort of watch list, as it's happened quite a few times.

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