News & Discussion: Trams

[Nathan]

Footpath rectification has been happening further east, so must be working their way along.

Oddly, the handrails were earthed, so not sure what the hell the issue is.

[rubberman]

.

(not Timtam's quote but taken from the DPTI post)

But do they need to be? Really? There was a time when they strung some wires from telegraph poles, ran electricity in the wires, and some old horse drawn trams where fitted with electric motors. Then with the advent of traffic lights, the trams followed the same rules as other road users. The trams of early last century ran at the same speed, with the same capacity as those now. It is essentially the same technology as 100 years ago. What is the need of all this complicated electrical and signalling they speak of?

Of course not. The scissors crossovers in Victoria Square and at Glenelg had zero dedicated signalling. Never a problem. At Vic Square the motormen used the normal traffic lights.

...

Claybro, none of Adelaide's original electric trams were converted from horse trams. Dedicated cast iron poles were used for the overhead, some of which survived in North Terrace until recently. Junctions points like North Tce/King William were controlled from an interlocked signal cabin and trams were routed by visual observation of route indicators.

Rubberman, how were the scissors at Vic Sq and Glenelg actuated? By traction current control? That form of control is no longer possible due to the substantial auxiliary load for aircon on modern trams. Hence the present day use of transponder actuation of facing points, with possible triggering of traffic lights.

The scissors at Vic Square and Glenelg were manually actuated as part of the end change procedure. Point bar.

However, that wasn't the issue I was addressing. Selection of point setting from within the tram is fair enough these days, as long as the drivers can still do it manually in case of need.

My point was that for safety's sake when approaching points at the speeds appropriate at termini, and in the CBD (nobody should be approaching facing points in those locations at 70kph), drivers should first note the setting of the point blades. That's a basic safety tenet. Having noted the point blades being correctly set, the question is whether additional indicators add or detract from safety. I would suggest that if the driver makes a mistake in observing a three metre long point blade, then a 300mm diameter indicator isn't going to add a lot of safety. In fact, the more information past the essential, often the more likely the information overload. Signals are essential when indicating a path through a complex junction (for example, one signal can show that a path through a complex junction is clear), or at high speed points. However, none of these conditions apply in Adelaide yet. Therefore, the question is, if the conditions for installing indication are not there, why are they being installed. It's almost as if heavy rail rules are being imposed on trams.

In a similar vein, if we look at the traffic lights on North Terrace, why are separate tram indicators required? Why does there have to be a "T" indication for the turns into North Terrace? Or at any of the other lights? Trams are just another vehicle in a lane in most cases. Sure, there are cases where a special indication is required. These are few though.

None of this is cheap.

[EBG]

I Agree with Rubberman. I was in Melbourne on the long week end with queues of up to 6 trams all following one another and turning off in different directions and there was far fewer indicator lights and far lees fuss.
I think Adelaide has opted for over kill.

[claybro]

I Agree with Rubberman. I was in Melbourne on the long week end with queues of up to 6 trams all following one another and turning off in different directions and there was far fewer indicator lights and far lees fuss.
I think Adelaide has opted for over kill.

I guess what many of us are saying, in a city that is a bit hostile toward trams, and seems to default to buses as the go to PT mode, the DPTI are not doing the reputation of trams any favours by making them slower and more complicated than needs be. God forbid if/when we have to tackle on road running in the suburbs.

[[Shuz]]

I've said it a few times already, DPTI purposedly run the tram system as if it were a heavy rail system not a light rail, hence the overengineering.

[claybro]

I've said it a few times already, DPTI purposedly run the tram system as if it were a heavy rail system not a light rail, hence the overengineering.

If they had a decent amount of work to roll out, over 5 or 10 years instead of the ad hock bit by bit extensions, it may be possible to poach a couple of experts from Europe, or even Melbourne, build a tram around them and cut the DPTI out of certain aspects of the process. Since there did not seem the will to do this under the previous government, and most certainly not under this one, well seems we will go through this again. It's not only in the implementation though, the operation suffers due to the overly cautious approach.-Speeds are painfully slow. But hey, throw a packed flimsy bus down a bumpy concrete track at 90km/h without signals and Adelaide is right up for it!

[EBG]

The longest I waited in Melbourne was 10 minutes, nobody got electrocuted, nobody got run over, no light poles bending under the strain... all the trams were full to overflowing .. cars did u turns at traffic lights. all this without traffic lights every 50m. The whole system is geared to actually moving lots of people as quickly as possible with a minimum if fuss.

[1NEEDS2POST]

It's not only in the implementation though, the operation suffers due to the overly cautious approach.-Speeds are painfully slow.

The big thing slowing down the Glenelg tram is stop spacing. Stops are about 400 m apart, similar to bus stops. However, unlike a bus it often stops at every stop. A bus has fewer people on it, so the chances of someone wanting to get off at the next stop are lower than a tram. Half of the Glenelg tram stops need to go for a reasonable speed.

As well as being too close, they don't offer connections. The tram runs in an overpass over Goodwood railway station, but there's no tram stop to connect with the trains.

[Norman]

It's not only in the implementation though, the operation suffers due to the overly cautious approach.-Speeds are painfully slow.

The big thing slowing down the Glenelg tram is stop spacing. Stops are about 400 m apart, similar to bus stops. However, unlike a bus it often stops at every stop. A bus has fewer people on it, so the chances of someone wanting to get off at the next stop are lower than a tram. Half of the Glenelg tram stops need to go for a reasonable speed.

As well as being too close, they don't offer connections. The tram runs in an overpass over Goodwood railway station, but there's no tram stop to connect with the trains.

The tram stop spacing is fine. It's a tram, not heavy rail, it's barely even a light rail service.

[claybro]

It's not only in the implementation though, the operation suffers due to the overly cautious approach.-Speeds are painfully slow.

The big thing slowing down the Glenelg tram is stop spacing. Stops are about 400 m apart, similar to bus stops. However, unlike a bus it often stops at every stop. A bus has fewer people on it, so the chances of someone wanting to get off at the next stop are lower than a tram. Half of the Glenelg tram stops need to go for a reasonable speed.

As well as being too close, they don't offer connections. The tram runs in an overpass over Goodwood railway station, but there's no tram stop to connect with the trains.

400m apart? In the CBD maybe, but definitely not in the suburban section thru plympton etc.. more like 1-1.5 km apart. But the timetables are too loose, and the drivrers are under no time pressure, so they dawdle along with all the time in world. The Port Road section is almost a joke at barely more than cycling pace. Being probably one of the most over engineered tramways in the world, it should be much faster, if not by maximum speed, then at least pick up the average speed and faster acceleration. Maybe get the Obahn operators to look after the tram.

[The Scooter Guy]

I'm still anxious to try out the new tramways.

[English Electric]

The big thing slowing down the Glenelg tram is stop spacing. Stops are about 400 m apart, similar to bus stops. ......

On the central part of the "main line" (Forestville to Plympton Park) there are 8 stops in 3.6km, meaning around 515m between stops on average, which I think is OK for the Glenelg line's purpose.

My main gripe with the operation of the tram line is not so much the suburban sections, but the glacial snail's pace through the CBD. A lot of this is down to Adelaide City Council's clueless sequencing of traffic lights (this applies throughout the city, trams or not, but that's another story)

For example, coming into the city from Glenelg, firstly the tram needs to wait for its turn to cross South Terrace - fair enough, I suppose. Once it gets onto KWS the lights at the Gilbert/Gilles St intersection invariably turn red right in front of the tram. Another wait. Then it's off towards the beckoning green light at Halifax/Sturt St. This one would work OK if it didn't need to stop, but there's a mandatory tram stop at City South. So by the time passengers have got on and off, the traffic light has just turned red and there's another wait for the full duration. And so it goes on. North Terrace (west) is a similar debacle.

I'm not suggesting a total tram priority scheme where every traffic signal turns green as a tram approaches (though this would be good at a couple of locations), but some simple, sensible re-timing of "dumb" traffic controls at places like Gilles Street would benefit thousands of travellers a day at minimal cost.

[timtam20292]

Latest update:

Dear Stakeholder

Thank you for your continued patience and ongoing interest in the City Tram Extension Project.

Works scheduled over the weekend include:

· paving works between Pulteney Street and Gawler Place.

· ramp works on the Old Royal Adelaide Hospital and Festival Plaza Precinct stops

· line marking

· general re-instatement works

Some speed and lane restrictions will apply in the vicinity of the works.

Test Trams will continue next week, with further testing required of the electrical and signalling systems.

Regards

Stakeholder and Community Engagement Team

[mawsonguy]

An interesting article in the Sydney Morning Herald about why the CBD light rail project has gone wrong (https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/how ... 4zohz.html). One quote caught my eye:

Faruqi, who has a doctorate in engineering, has argued extensively there has been a hollowing out of technical know-how in the public service. The end result is more time and money trying to fix design changes. “I am hugely concerned about the deliberate de-engineering and politicisation of the public sector and the immense over-reliance on outsourcing,” says Faruqi. “This has led to a diminished capability to establish accurate scope and cost in the first place, followed by a lack of capacity to properly scrutinise design, procurement and delivery from private contractors and consultants.”

Sound familiar?

[Pistol]

An interesting article in the Sydney Morning Herald about why the CBD light rail project has gone wrong (https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/how ... 4zohz.html). One quote caught my eye:

Faruqi, who has a doctorate in engineering, has argued extensively there has been a hollowing out of technical know-how in the public service. The end result is more time and money trying to fix design changes. “I am hugely concerned about the deliberate de-engineering and politicisation of the public sector and the immense over-reliance on outsourcing,” says Faruqi. “This has led to a diminished capability to establish accurate scope and cost in the first place, followed by a lack of capacity to properly scrutinise design, procurement and delivery from private contractors and consultants.”

Sound familiar?

That is happening in every facet of government be it state or federal.
What do you expect when politicians say ‘thin government’?
Someone still has to do the work and it’s not in the best interests of an ‘above-the-line’ contractor to do a good job or transfer knowledge because they are then doing themselves out of a job.